Clarence Crabb Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Turnips for sex? "A tumble for a turnip?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrogant Prince Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Not sure if this would be a plot hole but the fact that Bran doesn't go and meet Jon when he gets to the Nightfort or Sam not telling Jon that Bran's still alive is too convenient, even if promises were made. One earth-shattering hole I've noticed... The Night's Watch is mostly made up of men who are poverty stricken criminals. They are supplied with food, shelter, gear, etc - all the things they need to fill their duties in the watch. We never once hear about them getting a salary or stipend. There is no mention of them getting any sort of money nor do we hear anything about a Watch paymaster or any such officer. Jon himself says the Watch is "rich in turnips but poor in coin," so there probably isn't anything in the treasury to pay them with. It's completely reasonable to assume brothers of the Watch get no coin for their service. They don't really need it and no one mentions them getting it. So here is the major plot hole... ...how do they pay the whores in Mole's Town?If I recall, there was something about some of the NW mining for gold or something in Mole's Town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Plot holes? Tyrion and Littlefinger. Tyrion knows that Littlefinger framed him for the attempted murder on Bran but he does nothing about it when he comes back to the capital. So uncharacteristic. Tyrion doing backflips and then always complaining about how his legs hurt. Jorah Mormont being commonly known as Ser Jorah the Andal in Essos while he was a lord when he was stripped of his titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Yeah this is addressed very early on in the book, and quite simply it's not a plothole, or a mistake, or an oversight. It's actually a good, early example of how the Watch isn't necessarily neutral and really relies on people to give a shit. A man who has been trained in combat and leadership his whole life demanded a leadership role, and Mormont gave him a shot. Comparatively, Waymar was a gem when he joined the Watch. Armoured, trained, his own horse etc. Maybe if he goes off and has a good ranging he'll write home to daddy and the Watch will benefit for it with men, money, or equipment. But then it apparently also shows that the watch is short of men and seriously underestimating the dangers north of the wall. Because to placate a snobbish young noble you could also give him a command with a little more backup, more subtle advisors and not so far from the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfyre Gateau Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 But then it apparently also shows that the watch is short of men and seriously underestimating the dangers north of the wall. Because to placate a snobbish young noble you could also give him a command with a little more backup, more subtle advisors and not so far from the Wall. Also, who's to say it was the Old Bear who specifically authorised Royce to lead the ranging? There may have been a reference to not wanting to turn up at the Wall with nothing to tell the Old Bear (I can't remember specifically), but a 'small ranging' could well have been delegated - e.g. It might have been the First Ranger, Benjen Stark, or one of the other 'senior Rangers - e.g. Sir Jaremy Rykker or Thoren Smallwood who took a punt on giving Royce his chance also giving him a seasoned brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vylarr Rivers Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Stannis' behaviour after Jon Arryn was poisoned always seemed illogical to me. He flees to Dragonstone because he is afraid he will be murdered next (so far so good). But then he just sits there doing nothing? The only information we got about him is that he is raising men on Dragonstone. What can he hope to achieve with that? He only has a few bannermen as lord of Dragonstone... At this point Ned Stark has arrived in KL and Robert + Renly are alive and kicking. Ned even writes him a letter to which he doesn't respond. Returning to the capital with 100 men under the disguise of resuming his position as master of ships would be the most unsuspicious thing in the world. He could have a little talk with Ned, and even though they didn't really like each other Ned is already convinced that the Lannisters are conspiring against Robert and is close to finding out the "secret" of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. Even Renly had his plan of wedding Margaery to Robert and would be on their side. I remember reading AGOT for the first time and constantly expecting Stannis to show up, which made me think that he is a coward when he ultimately didn't. But the Stannis we meet in the second book doesn't strike me as this kind of guy at all. It seems to me this whole scenario of Stannis disappearing on Dragonstone was necessary to get the plot in motion, yet it still bugs me. I'm sorry I hope it is alright if I bring my "plot hole" (?) up again. I am in the middle of my AGOT re-read and still haven't found out what Stannis' plan on Dragonstone was before Robert died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.Grumpy Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Jorah Mormont being commonly known as Ser Jorah the Andal in Essos while he was a lord when he was stripped of his titlesIt's not a plot hole. The only people who call him that is Dothraki and its because they dont know the difference between an Andal and a First Man. They even call Westeros something like land of the Andals.He was a lord when he sold slaves. Ned took his lordship not knightship. It seems like Jeor and Jorah are following the Seven and Ned has no authory over knighthood I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 One earth-shattering hole I've noticed... The Night's Watch is mostly made up of men who are poverty stricken criminals. They are supplied with food, shelter, gear, etc - all the things they need to fill their duties in the watch. We never once hear about them getting a salary or stipend. There is no mention of them getting any sort of money nor do we hear anything about a Watch paymaster or any such officer. Jon himself says the Watch is "rich in turnips but poor in coin," so there probably isn't anything in the treasury to pay them with. It's completely reasonable to assume brothers of the Watch get no coin for their service. They don't really need it and no one mentions them getting it. So here is the major plot hole... ...how do they pay the whores in Mole's Town? http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Various_ASoIaF_Questions I assume that the Night's Watch does not pay the Black Brothers any wages in coin for their service - they get their provisions for free, after all. What I was wondering...how do the Brothers pay the whores in Moletown? Since they're not using coin, do they pay in naturalia filched from Night Watch' stores? I guess some women so far north would choose such a life (given that life is relatively harsher than farther south), even if they are not paid in coin... A lot of the Mole's Town transactions are paid by barter, certaintly, but there is coin at the Wall... not much, though, especially these days... (see following answer). Some coin comes north with the highborn brothers... someone like Ser Waymar Royce undoubtedly arrived well heeled, and I imagine families send gifts and such as well... and there's trade that goes in and out of Eastwatch... If I recall, there was something about some of the NW mining for gold or something in Mole's Town. "Digging for buried treasure" is a euphemism for visiting the whores of Mole's Town, who live underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Tyrion and Littlefinger. Tyrion knows that Littlefinger framed him for the attempted murder on Bran but he does nothing about it when he comes back to the capital. So uncharacteristicYup still haven't really seen a satisfactory reason for this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Didn't know how he'd replace LF, so hesitated to cut him down? Bygones? Par for the course when you're near the top? Was it a low priority revenge put on the back burner, awaiting the right time, and then Tyrion didn't have the time to get around to it? ...how do they pay the whores in Mole's Town? ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfyre Gateau Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 ! Yeah, I've thought about this one! Lol, maybe that's why Jon's forced to borrow from the IB to 'last the winter' - all the reserves have been frittered away (I'll keep it clean) in Mole's Town during the long summer ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Yeah, I've thought about this one! Lol, maybe that's why Jon's forced to borrow from the IB to 'last the winter' - all the reserves have been frittered away (I'll keep it clean) in Mole's Town during the long summer ;) Quoting RumHam's response: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Various_ASoIaF_Questions "Digging for buried treasure" is a euphemism for visiting the whores of Mole's Town, who live underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Yup still haven't really seen a satisfactory reason for this Dunno why this confuses people. Tyrion just didn't have time; he was too busy planning the defense of Kings Landing and had to agree to sending Littlefinger to the Tyrells. He even thinks about how he will have to wait for the war to finish before dealing with him: But do I dare touch him? Tyrion wondered. Even if he is a traitor? He was not at all certain he could, least of all now, while the war raged. Given time, he could replace Littlefinger’s men with his own in key positions, but . . . And later on: “Your Grace, my lord Hand,” said Littlefinger, “the king needs both of you here. Let me go in your stead.” “You?” What gain does he see in this? Tyrion wondered. “I am of the king’s council, yet not the king’s blood, so I would make a poor hostage. I knew Ser Loras passing well when he was here at court, and gave him no cause to mislike me. Mace Tyrell bears me no enmity that I know of, and I flatter myself that I am not unskilled in negotiation.” He has us. Tyrion did not trust Petyr Baelish, nor did he want the man out of his sight, yet what other choice was left him? It must be Littlefinger or Tyrion himself, and he knew full well that if he left King’s Landing for any length of time, all that he had managed to accomplish would be undone. When Littefinger returned, it was with Tywin, so Tyrion lost his power, and he lost the clansmen, and barely had Bronn as an ally. Quite simply, Tyrion didn't get an adequate chance to deal with Littlefinger, and the reasons for this are made clear to the reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Dunno why this confuses people. Tyrion just didn't have time; he was too busy planning the defense of Kings Landing and had to agree to sending Littlefinger to the Tyrells. He even thinks about how he will have to wait for the war to finish before dealing with him: And later on: When Littefinger returned, it was with Tywin, so Tyrion lost his power, and he lost the clansmen, and barely had Bronn as an ally. Quite simply, Tyrion didn't get an adequate chance to deal with Littlefinger, and the reasons for this are made clear to the reader. I half agree with you. Tyrion was really, really busy with threats from all sides. Then again, why not just send Littlefinger to the Wall and be done with it? The guy is clearly up to no good. Tyrion had no trouble sending Slynt to the Wall and that guy 1) was Lord of Harrenahl, 2) had thousands Gold Cloaks supporting him and 3) never did anything to Tyrion. Slynt gets sent to the Wall nominally for following orders and killing a bastard baby, but really because he was Littlefinger's man. Littlefinger was 1) a minor lord and 2) only had the Gold Cloaks through Slynt. Littlefinger gets nothing even though Tyrion believes Littlefinger framed him for murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Because littlefinger was useful unlike Slynt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 LF also had many customs officer's etc. Uprooting all of them, finding trustworthy men to replace them and potentially upsetting the economy isn't something Tyrion would have been wise to do during a time of war. Far better the devil you know, as the saying goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 LF also had many customs officer's etc. Uprooting all of them, finding trustworthy men to replace them and potentially upsetting the economy isn't something Tyrion would have been wise to do during a time of war. Far better the devil you know, as the saying goes. Littlefinger's move to the Vale went pretty smoothly and I know this sounds weird, but Gyles Rosby was a perfectly fine Master of Coin. He was probably superior to Littlefinger in that he didn't want to drive the kingdom into massive debt. If Cersei at her craziest was able to make that sound appointment, I'm sure Tyrion could have done the same. If I were going to make the argument for why Littlefinger stayed, I suppose Tyrion assumed that Littlefinger was a money magician at this point. Tyrion needed money for the coming war. Of course, later we find out that Littlefinger was no magician at all. He simply borrowed the money recklessly. Why everyone didn't assume that is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Indeed, Littlefinger owned too many men. Get rid of Littlefinger, get killed soon after, or watch various parts of Kings Landing destabilize as his men cause trouble/abandon posts etc. Hence why Tyrion blatantly thinks about waiting until after the war, and even then is wary about moving against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxvb Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Not if the "issue" is them framing you for murder. LF tried to get Tyrion killed, he might try again. Nobody is that useful. Plus, "Littlefinger's men" are there by his patronage not for his cause (which LF wouldn't share). When their patron is removed they are unlikely to start a plot to avenge him. They'll sulk, they'll do something petty perhaps, but they wouldn't risk their necks (literally) for revenge. They can't gain anything, but they can lose their positions and their lives. In addition: Tyrion could have explained it to Tywin as a Castamere-situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Theon successfully attacking Winterfell/Ser Rodrik completely exposing it. The rest, that's all possible. Maybe not very likely, but possible. But this particular passage is just plain bollocks, Agreed He has assets - the Gift, a 8000-years-history, a claim on Winterfell and Stannis/the Iron Throne as an overlord That's a big stretch. Jon's a bastard of the Night's Watch, not a prince or noble lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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