the custom of fostering?

[Dr. Pepper]

Loras was taken as poltical assurance,

How are you coming to this conclusion? Loras was a baby when Robert's Rebellion ended. Are you assuming that Loras was forcibly taken from Highgarden before he even left his mother's teat?

[JoeyBanana]

How are you coming to this conclusion? Loras was a baby when Robert's Rebellion ended. Are you assuming that Loras was forcibly taken from Highgarden before he even left his mother's teat?

He was obviously not taken literally and directly after the rebellion ended. The Tyrells still had no choice but to give Robert (and therefore the Baratheons) some assurance of their peaceful intentions. Hence Loras being Renly's squire. The fact that it was Loras, could be attributed to different circumstances of the Greyjoys and Tyrells, or because it was done after Balon's rebellion when Robert and Arryn became wary of betrayal and wanted assurance.

I'm not going to explain why their situations are similar despite it being treated and seen in a different light, as i've done that twice already.

[Lord Reaver]

How are you coming to this conclusion? Loras was a baby when Robert's Rebellion ended. Are you assuming that Loras was forcibly taken from Highgarden before he even left his mother's teat?

Exactly. It is a complete fabrication of intent from Joeybana, without a shred of support in the text. All we know is that Loras was fostered with the Baratheons, nothing is said of any threats, implied or not.

With Theon, on the other hand, we are explicitly told not only that he was taken forcibly without consent, but also that he was afforded less respect than the bastard Jon, and from Ned himself that he was nothing more than a piece of leverage against Balon.

Trying to equate those two situations is frankly, ludicrous and only serves to illustrate how far some people are willing to go in order to whitewash saint Ned.

[Mikkel]

You're not agreeing, apparently.

I was agreeing with the Northeners' expectations that Theon is now "one of them", and the labelling of Theon as a kinslayer is hypocritical and unfair. I don't agree with your views on the Greyjoys/Iron Born in general, nor do I agree that Theon is a reliable narrator, and consequently I don't take his recollections at face value.

[The Wolves]

I'm not surprised that Loras was fostered with the Baratheon, Mace seemed liked he tried to get in good with the royal family early on.

[Lord Reaver]

I was agreeing with the Northeners' expectations that Theon is now "one of them", and the labelling of Theon as a kinslayer is hypocritical and unfair. I don't agree with your views on the Greyjoys/Iron Born in general, nor do I agree that Theon is a reliable narrator, and consequently I don't take his recollections at face value.

Ah, well, at least we can agree on some things.

[Dr. Pepper]

He was obviously not taken literally and directly after the rebellion ended. The Tyrells still had no choice but to give Robert (and therefore the Baratheons) some assurance of their peaceful intentions. Hence Loras being Renly's squire. The fact that it was Loras, could be attributed to different circumstances of the Greyjoys and Tyrells, or because it was done after Balon's rebellion when Robert and Arryn became wary of betrayal and wanted assurance.

I'm not going to explain why their situations are similar despite it being treated and seen in a different light, as i've done that twice already.

Well, you obviously aren't explaining it very well if people are questioning your conclusion.

For their situations to be similar, Loras would have needed to be taken forcefully from his home. The Tyrells had already been forgiven by Robert, they'd already bent the knee. There's no suggestion, that I recall, in the text that indicates the Tyrells acted in such a way to make the crown wary or feel threatened. The time to take a hostage (or 'honored guest') would have been after Robert's Rebellion, when the Reach actually stayed reasonably true to the Targaryens until the end. And then, there were three other older children to choose from.

I don't deny that fostering is generally a gesture of good faith/good will. Nor do I deny that a fosterling could be used as a hostage should the need arise. I just simply cannot recall any instance in the text that would suggest that the Tyrells had "no choice" but to give Loras over as a hostage. If you have evidence, please present it.

[JoeyBanana]

Exactly. It is a complete fabrication of intent from Joeybana, without a shred of support in the text. All we know is that Loras was fostered with the Baratheons, nothing is said of any threats, implied or not.

With Theon, on the other hand, we are explicitly told not only that he was taken forcibly without consent, but also that he was afforded less respect than the bastard Jon, and from Ned himself that he was nothing more than a piece of leverage against Balon.

Trying to equate those two situations is frankly, ludicrous and only serves to illustrate how far some people are willing to go in order to whitewash saint Ned.

This isn't even about Ned. You jumped on one example of a larger point and i admitted it's very debatable and tried to explain myself.

[JoeyBanana]

Well, you obviously aren't explaining it very well if people are questioning your conclusion.

For their situations to be similar, Loras would have needed to be taken forcefully from his home. The Tyrells had already been forgiven by Robert, they'd already bent the knee. There's no suggestion, that I recall, in the text that indicates the Tyrells acted in such a way to make the crown wary or feel threatened. The time to take a hostage (or 'honored guest') would have been after Robert's Rebellion, when the Reach actually stayed reasonably true to the Targaryens until the end. And then, there were three other older children to choose from.

I don't deny that fostering is generally a gesture of good faith/good will. Nor do I deny that a fosterling could be used as a hostage should the need arise. I just simply cannot recall any instance in the text that would suggest that the Tyrells had "no choice" but to give Loras over as a hostage. If you have evidence, please present it.

If you really need to argue semantics (because that's what this is) then please make the effort to properly read my posts. The Tyrells had no choice but to give the Baratheons assurance of their peaceful intentions, not Loras as a hostage. After that, i speculated on why it was Loras and not someone or something else. You know, "could" is the keyword here.

But yeah, i'm explaining it wrong as your are quite clearly infallible.

[Nittanian]

Here is the SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

Also, http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202/

I can understand why Robert Baratheon was sent to be John Arryn's ward -- his parents had died -- but why was Eddard Stark sent as well? Was this an established practice among noble houses? Were Stannis and/or Renly Baratheon sent to be wards with anyone?

Yes, fostering was common among noble houses, both in Westeros and in the real middle ages. Especially for boys. It was considered both a means of education, and a way to cultivate friendships and alliances.

[Dr. Pepper]

If you really need to argue semantics (because that's what this is) then please make the effort to properly read my posts. The Tyrells had no choice but to give the Baratheons assurance of their peaceful intentions, not Loras as a hostage. After that, i speculated on why it was Loras and not someone or something else. You know, "could" is the keyword here.

But yeah, i'm explaining it wrong as your are quite clearly infallible.

I have read your posts. What exactly was in your posts that you think I skipped over? The semantics matter here. You are arguing that Loras was a hostage, comparable to Theon as a hostage. Yet, you are providing no textual support for your conclusion. The semantics matter here. If the Tyrells had no choice in the matter, then Loras is a hostage. But if the Tyrells decided on their own to send their son to Storm's End to be fostered, then it's clearly not a hostage situation in the same vein as Theon. Especially since the Tyrells had already been forgiven by the crown and also since the Reach supported Robert in the Greyjoy Rebellion. So exactly what reason would the Tyrells have been given no choice but to send their son as a hostage?

[Lord Reaver]

Thanks for those quotes. They illustrate yet another way Theon's situation differs from all the others. He was not free to go home, neither before age 16, nor after.

[RainGhost]

Nobody has answered my question. How long could Ned have kept Theon as a hostage? What if Balon had lived another 20 years? Could he have kept Theon till he was 40?

[Lord Reaver]

Nobody has answered my question. How long could Ned have kept Theon as a hostage? What if Balon had lived another 20 years? Could he have kept Theon till he was 40?

Since we see noone questioning Ned keeping Theon well after becoming an adult (16 years), I see no reason why he wouldn't keep him til 40. It is fairly clear Ned only saw Theon as a bargaining chip. If that chip is 4, 14, or 40 does it really matter ?

[Dr. Pepper]

Nobody has answered my question. How long could Ned have kept Theon as a hostage? What if Balon had lived another 20 years? Could he have kept Theon till he was 40?

I can't recall if there's a historical example we can draw from to determine this. I think technically Theon could remain a hostage until he was 40. However, it seems like he would start to quickly lose all value and all of the resources that went into educating Theon and forming relationships would result in a fairly big loss. If Theon had been gone for 35+ years and suddenly returns, how is he going to be received by his vassals? There is some continuity there since his name is Greyjoy, but he's still a virtual stranger when he returns. Worse, he'd arrive a stranger with all the appearances of an outsider. What if Asha had a son? Would the Iron Islanders laugh at Theon and say Balon already has a male heir? Victarion or Euron might also be more palatable options. Then there's the issue with the kingsmoot. What if Aeron calls a kingsmoot and Theon isn't chosen?

There are just way too many ways that this could result in failure. Sure, they kept Balon from rebelling by holding Theon hostage. But the longer they keep Theon, the harder it is to return him as Lord of House Greyjoy and have him easily accepted.

[new djinn]

There several odd situations in relation to fostering:

-None of Ned's kids are fostered, but i suppose Ned traumas about Brandon/Lyanna and lack of political foresight play a part in this.

-Robert is fostered but Stannis isn't.

-Loras is fostered/squired but were Garlan or Wyllas?

-None of Robert's kids are anything untill Tyrion does the Dornish deal. Cersei likely browbeat Robert, again!

-It's clear that Ned/Bob hoped to foster the ironborn out of Theon(so that he would pro-7K), but by isollating him from the IB, they significantly lowered his chof ever ruling Pyke, which defeat the purpose.

-In the last 15 years, no Lord or landed knight neither wanted or manage to have one of their kids fostered at WF, RR, CR or Pyke, while HG, SS, Eyrie and SE had wards/squires/fosterlings.

[Lord Reaver]

There are just way too many ways that this could result in failure. Sure, they kept Balon from rebelling by holding Theon hostage. But the longer they keep Theon, the harder it is to return him as Lord of House Greyjoy and have him easily accepted.

There is nothing in the text supporting that Ned had any plans about Theon ever ruling the Iron Islands. Assuming there were such plans is pure speculation.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

There several odd situations in relation to fostering:

-None of Ned's kids are fostered, but i suppose Ned traumas about Brandon/Lyanna and lack of political foresight play a part in this.

Agreed, but I think that has to do with GRRM wanting the story to start out with the Starks together

-Robert is fostered but Stannis isn't.

This might because Robert became King @ 17. So Stannis became defacto Lord Paramount of the Stormlands at a young age.

-Loras is fostered/squired but were Garlan or Wyllas?

Maybe just not stated?

-None of Robert's kids are anything untill Tyrion does the Dornish deal. Cersei likely browbeat Robert, again!

This is 100% Cersie

-It's clear that Ned/Bob hoped to foster the ironborn out of Theon(so that he would pro-7K), but by isollating him from the IB, they significantly lowered his chof ever ruling Pyke, which defeat the purpose.

This comes down to them not understanding the Iron Born. Anywhere else this is probably not a problem. On the Iron Islands it works opposite.

-In the last 15 years, no Lord or landed knight neither wanted or manage to have one of their kids fostered at WF, RR, CR or Pyke, while HG, SS, Eyrie and SE had wards/squires/fosterlings.

I think Winterfell is because they had Theon. River Run had Littlefinger not too long ago, see how that worked out, maybe Hoster's age played a part in that? Tywin was going to take Robin. And Pyke.. would you send you kids there?

[Dr. Pepper]

There is nothing in the text supporting that Ned had any plans about Theon ever ruling the Iron Islands. Assuming there were such plans is pure speculation.

In the text, Ned identifies Theon as both a hostage and a ward. He's included in all of the lordly training and education. Without even further examining the text, that alone is enough to suggest that there was no intent to strip Theon of his status as heir to the Iron Islands.

[new djinn]

-None of Ned's kids are fostered, but i suppose Ned traumas about Brandon/Lyanna and lack of political foresight play a part in this.

Agreed, but I think that has to do with GRRM wanting the story to start out with the Starks together

-Robert is fostered but Stannis isn't.

This might because Robert became King @ 17. So Stannis became defacto Lord Paramount of the Stormlands at a young age.

-Loras is fostered/squired but were Garlan or Wyllas?

Maybe just not stated?

-None of Robert's kids are anything untill Tyrion does the Dornish deal. Cersei likely browbeat Robert, again!

This is 100% Cersie

-It's clear that Ned/Bob hoped to foster the ironborn out of Theon(so that he would pro-7K), but by isollating him from the IB, they significantly lowered his chof ever ruling Pyke, which defeat the purpose.

This comes down to them not understanding the Iron Born. Anywhere else this is probably not a problem. On the Iron Islands it works opposite.

-In the last 15 years, no Lord or landed knight neither wanted or manage to have one of their kids fostered at WF, RR, CR or Pyke, while HG, SS, Eyrie and SE had wards/squires/fosterlings.

I think Winterfell is because they had Theon. River Run had Littlefinger not too long ago, see how that worked out, maybe Hoster's age played a part in that? Tywin was going to take Robin. And Pyke.. would you send you kids there?

Are you sure about Bob crowning age(i think he was older)? But that stll doesn't explain why Stannis wasn't fostered when he was younger. Lords can foster more that one kid(ex: Jon Arryn, Roger Reyne, Doran Martell, Stannis Baratheon), and we are talking about a 15 year period. No Northern Lord wanted one of his kids to be friends with Robb or to draw Sansa's attention? Tywin agrees to fostering SweetRobin with Bob support and against the Valesmen stance, it's almost a hostage taking thing. LF might've turned out badly, but on the other hand, there no more Tully women in RR to be dishonored, and even before LF, there were no mention of Riverlanders being fostered there. Look at the children a the Water Gardens or Margaery entourage, quite the difference!