GRRM drops everything to write TWOW

[raj34]

Allegedly they already started filming the new series. Doesn't that imply that season 5 scripts have already been written by now?

Of course it does. Martin abstaining from this season would have saved him a couple of weeks of writing in the PAST not the future.

[Veltigar]

I'm not 'wrong'...I didn't like the book. I found it to be below his standards for the previous books. I thought ADWD was better, but not nearly as good as the first three. AFFC was a terrible read. Brienne, Cersei and Asha weren't POV characters before that book, so they weren't really characters that people cared about.

Ever heard of this guy called 'Stannis'. Last time I checked he isn't a PoV-character, but he's one of the most popular characters GRRM has created here. Simply put, the fact that someone isn't a PoV-character doesn't mean that no one cares about them.

And yes you are wrong. The fact that you didn't like it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad book. I'm not a big fan of 2001: a space odyssey, but I have no trouble in acknowledging that it's one of the greatest films ever made.

Who are the characters that people care about? The characters we have followed from the first book- Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya...and we only got Arya and Sansa.

If you are only capable to love those characters, I pity you. You are missing out on some great characters, but so be it.

He should have recombined them and edited out a lot of the superfluous stuff that won't have a huge effect on the outcome of the series, and I think we would have got a worthy follow-up to ASOS.

Not everything needs to have a huge effect on the outcome of the series. Sometimes, it's good to pause a moment to take in your surroundings, to see what has become of world as a result of the previous developments. If you're reading a book solely for the sake of plot, you miss out on so much.

How do you explain the crap that was ADWD then? It took an entire book to get interesting, then the second it does, he ends it. AFFC and ADWD are poorly planned and poorly executed books and definitely not worth the 10 year wait he put us through.

ADWD is many things, but not crap. It has a lot more problems than AFFC, I'll readily admit that (In fact I already gave a brief comment on ADWD in an earlier post here, you seemed to have missed that, so I'll quote the relevant part) but it certainly is not as bad as you make it out to be. Theon, Victarion, Cersei, Jaime, Davos and Jon's chapters are great. Bran's chapters become a lot more interesting, Barristan is a good addition and the epilogue is very good.

Compare that to ADWD which is clearly inferior to AFFC. Now that book has some problematic arcs (Tyrion's self-pity and the presence of Daario. Especially the later one is a shame, Daario is a terrible character, but his role in Dany's arc is brilliant), some very shoddy worldbuilding (the downside of having many Essosi chapters) and it lacks a proper ending (though probably, no one will care about that once tWoW comes out). You can call those things out, but even then, saying that they don't move the plot forward at all is pretty dishonest. All in all, both books are at times seriously handicapped by GRRM decision to change the series (scrapping the Five year gap), but he still manages to pull the strings together and deliver two very compelling novels which set the stage for the next phase of the story.

[WexPyke]

I thought AFFC went off the rails a bit at the beginning, but only a bit. Too many narrative conventions were broken by introducing so many new characters and going to so many new places in the beginning of the story, And to write an entire book with no mention of Tyrion, Dany or Jon - after fans had already waited years to hear what they were going to do - was a very odd authorial decision and bound to disappoint people. If for no other reason than that we finally picked up on those 3 characters (but for other reasons as well), ADWD was a much more successful work, in my eyes and to most readers, I think.

AFFC was still well-written and well-plotted, by no means a disaster, but it had some problems.

I get the feeling these were as much editorial failures likely based on the slow pace of the books being written - eg we will print whatever he writes.

[LordStoneheart]

I'm not 'wrong'...I didn't like the book. I found it to be below his standards for the previous books. I thought ADWD was better, but not nearly as good as the first three. AFFC was a terrible read. Brienne, Cersei and Asha weren't POV characters before that book, so they weren't really characters that people cared about. Who are the characters that people care about? The characters we have followed from the first book- Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya...and we only got Arya and Sansa. Breaking up the story like he did was a bad decision. He should have recombined them and edited out a lot of the superfluous stuff that won't have a huge effect on the outcome of the series, and I think we would have got a worthy follow-up to ASOS.

I do love Feast but I agree. I think the Ironborn stuff should have just been a standalone novella for superfans, and same with Dorne. by taking out those it's still a helluva long book but it probably would have been received better.

[Veltigar]

I get the feeling these were as much editorial failures likely based on the slow pace of the books being written - eg we will print whatever he writes.

Actually, IIRC Daniel Abraham was the one who suggested the divide we got to GRRM. He had fallen pretty far behind at that point (The infamous scrapping of the 5 year gap) and Abraham's suggested the division based on location as a possible way to get a new book out. If they hadn't done it that way, the bookseries would probably have been even more delayed than it already is.

In the long term, it probably would have been better if GRRM had gone a different route, especially given the odd ending of ADWD (which should have had at least one of the major battles to top it off). The actual AFFC - ADWD division isn't as damaging as the fact that ADWD feels incomplete imo.

[GERM]

ADWD is many things, but not crap. It has a lot more problems than AFFC, I'll readily admit that (In fact I already gave a brief comment on ADWD in an earlier post here, you seemed to have missed that, so I'll quote the relevant part) but it certainly is not as bad as you make it out to be. Theon, Victarion, Cersei, Jaime, Davos and Jon's chapters are great. Bran's chapters become a lot more interesting, Barristan is a good addition and the epilogue is very good.

I wasn't claiming it was poorly written, I was saying that it has a lot of pointless filler (crap) in there in terms of arcs. It was definitely a well written book though, but I stand by the poor execution and poorly planned sentiment. I think his decision to stray from the plan in 2001 required a good amount of outlining and planning. He told us back then in a meet and greet that he still expected it out in 2002. If he had simply taken time to plan this change, these stories would have been tighter.

[sj4iy]

Ever heard of this guy called 'Stannis'. Last time I checked he isn't a PoV-character, but he's one of the most popular characters GRRM has created here. Simply put, the fact that someone isn't a PoV-character doesn't mean that no one cares about them.

Really? There's a character named Stannis? How did I miss that :P

And I had no idea that some people liked him so much before I came to this forum. I like Davos, I don't particularly care for Stannis and would dislike it if we were to only get Stannis' POV and not Davos' for an entire book.

And yes you are wrong. The fact that you didn't like it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad book. I'm not a big fan of 2001: a space odyssey, but I have no trouble in acknowledging that it's one of the greatest films ever made.

I'm not 'wrong' for thinking the book wasn't as good as the others. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in that opinion, either. Disagree if you want, but I'm not wrong and you aren't right.

If you are only capable to love those characters, I pity you. You are missing out on some great characters, but so be it.

Oh, please, stop with the patronizing tone. I don't need pity for not enjoying a completely different story about people we don't really know or only know through other people's POVs. And I don't see how I 'missed out on them' when I read them. I just didn't enjoy it like I would have if I had read a more established character that I already had a connection with.

Not everything needs to have a huge effect on the outcome of the series. Sometimes, it's good to pause a moment to take in your surroundings, to see what has become of world as a result of the previous developments. If you're reading a book solely for the sake of plot, you miss out on so much.

No, not everything needs to have a huge effect on the outcome of the series...unless those things get an entire book while displacing the characters and storylines that WILL have an huge effect on the outcome of the series. Reading for the sake of the plot is the point of reading. I've read Les Misérables in its entirety and unabridged. You know what? The abridged version is better, because Hugo 'pauses' the story to talk about the surroundings and the history and all of this other stuff that has absolutely no effect or outcome on the plot. The book should NEVER have to 'pause' the plot to talk about something else. If that's what's happening, then there's a problem with the story. A few side adventures are fine if they help to flesh out a character...but when they take up the majority of the story, though, that's a problem.

[GERM]

No, not everything needs to have a huge effect on the outcome of the series...unless those things get an entire book while displacing the characters and storylines that WILL have an huge effect on the outcome of the series. Reading for the sake of the plot is the point of reading. I've read Les Misérables in its entirety and unabridged. You know what? The abridged version is better, because Huge 'pauses' the story to talk about the surroundings and the history and all of this other stuff that has absolutely no effect or outcome on the plot. The book should NEVER have to 'pause' the plot to talk about something else. If that's what's happening, then there's a problem with the story. A few side adventures are fine if they help to flesh out a character...but when they take up the majority of the story, though, that's a problem.

I agree with sj4iy on this. I think the original poster has lost the idea behind the true purpose of a story. It is to get to the end. We read books for the plot, not for the experience. I live my life for experiences. I take pictures and travel for my experiences. I read books to be entertained with a story.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I agree with sj4iy on this. I think the original poster has lost the idea behind the true purpose of a story. It is to get to the end. We read books for the plot, not for the experience. I live my life for experiences. I take pictures and travel for my experiences. I read books to be entertained with a story.

Well, actually we read books for both the plot and to experience the journey and world of the characters. However, the point is indeed to get to the end.

[bluelip]

What could you possibly be basing this on?

It's patently obvious. The show is cutting characters and altering plots. It's being forced to leave out more and more stuff as it creeps into AFFC/ADWD territory. The butterfly effect will kick in big time from here on out.

I'll concede that "sufficient" divergence is a matter of taste. Yes, we'll get a simplified version of the big finale for Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Arya/Jaime etc. on the show first. That's certain, and for book-first folks, I understand that it sucks. However, I'll be satisfied with one last huge chunk of book content before HBO plows towards the ending.

[GERM]

It's patently obvious. The show is cutting characters and altering plots. It's being forced to leave out more and more stuff as it creeps into AFFC/ADWD territory. The butterfly effect will kick in big time from here on out.

I'll concede that "sufficient" divergence is a matter of taste. Yes, we'll get a simplified version of the big finale for Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Arya/Jaime etc. on the show first. That's certain, and for book-first folks, I understand that it sucks. However, I'll be satisfied with one last huge chunk of book content before HBO plows towards the ending.

Bluelip, the probable scenario is they're cutting out what doesn't matter to the overall end game. They know a lot and Martin inputs a lot. It is likely that you're just tasting what useless plotlines Martin has introduced.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I agree with sj4iy on this. I think the original poster has lost the idea behind the true purpose of a story. It is to get to the end. We read books for the plot, not for the experience. I live my life for experiences. I take pictures and travel for my experiences. I read books to be entertained with a story.

:ack: :thumbsdown:

[Colonel Green]

What law? Freedom of contract is in the Constitution, and the Supreme Court doesn't take that lightly.

Ahem. It's an industry standard. There's a six year contract, with an option for a seventh year renegotiation along certain lines. After the seventh year, a full-scale renegotiation is required.

[Veltigar]

Really? There's a character named Stannis? How did I miss that :P

And I had no idea that some people liked him so much before I came to this forum. I like Davos, I don't particularly care for Stannis and would dislike it if we were to only get Stannis' POV and not Davos' for an entire book.

Exactly, you had no idea that the Mannis was this popular. Ergo, the fact that you didn't care for any of the new PoV's, just because they were new, doesn't mean that all the other people share your opinion.

I'm not 'wrong' for thinking the book wasn't as good as the others. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in that opinion, either. Disagree if you want, but I'm not wrong and you aren't right.

Now, that wasn't what I wrote. Read my post again, I said that you were wrong in calling AFFC a bad book. You can prefer other books, you can find them superior, you can all say that (though in ADWD's case, their is a pretty strong case against) but flat-out calling AFFC a bad book is not true.

Oh, please, stop with the patronizing tone. I don't need pity for not enjoying a completely different story about people we don't really know or only know through other people's POVs. And I don't see how I 'missed out on them' when I read them. I just didn't enjoy it like I would have if I had read a more established character that I already had a connection with..

At the start of this series, you didn't know anyone, yet you came to care about them. There is no reason you can't latch on to these new characters, you just need to be open for it. If you only care for the PoV-characters introduced in AGOT, you miss out some of the greatest characters GRRM has created. That's no Jaime, no Theon, no Davos, no Victarion, etc.

Perhaps the shock of introducing such a barrage of new characters is unsettling, especially since you indeed have few originals, I was upset to the first time I read AFFC (long before ADWD was published). Since then, I have reread the book again and the characters have become as much a part of the Song as the first timers.

No, not everything needs to have a huge effect on the outcome of the series...unless those things get an entire book while displacing the characters and storylines that WILL have an huge effect on the outcome of the series.

The introduction of Euron and the horn, Arya starting her training as FM, Sansa in the Vale, Marwyn's introduction, Arianne getting in on Doran's plans, Brienne meeting LS, Cersei allowing the Faith Militant to be reborn and insulting the IBB etc. those are all things which will clearly have (or already have had) a huge impact on the outcome of the novels. All of these things happen in AFFC.

Reading for the sake of the plot is the point of reading.

That's a very outdated opinion. The point of reading is... reading itself. Plot is certainly a part of that, but limiting a book to it's plot alone is not a good way to go about it. When reading a book, you engage with it, you drink in the language, you look at the symbols and other literary techniques it uses (e.g. the often misused term of forshadowing) and so on. In other words you make use of the entire package.

I've read Les Misérables in its entirety and unabridged. You know what? The abridged version is better, because Hugo 'pauses' the story to talk about the surroundings and the history and all of this other stuff that has absolutely no effect or outcome on the plot. The book should NEVER have to 'pause' the plot to talk about something else. If that's what's happening, then there's a problem with the story. A few side adventures are fine if they help to flesh out a character...but when they take up the majority of the story, though, that's a problem.

Perhaps in Hugo's case, you might have a point. He's notoriously longwinded (though I quite enjoyed his Notre-Dame de Paris). That doesn't mean that GRRM has the same problem there. GRRM doesn't pause the plot to talk about something completely different, he actually brings the plot further along and lays the track for progression in the next installments (see examples above).

:ack: :thumbsdown:

agreed

[bluelip]

Bluelip, the probable scenario is they're cutting out what doesn't matter to the overall end game. They know a lot and Martin inputs a lot. It is likely that you're just tasting what useless plotlines Martin has introduced.

The "overall end game" will manifest itself quite differently in each of the distinct universes. Given the depth and complexity of the novels' world, and Martin's sneaky nature, I believe this is a sure thing.

Also, Martin has years and years to finish the series. He's playful, and he's tricky. I'll bet he won't resist the temptation to switch up his plans to throw curveballs at the faithful. I mean, he's already said things like "I like Bronn and Osha so much in the show that I'm expanding their roles in the books," etc.

Anyway, my original point is that I'll only see him as having let us down if he fails to ship TWOW by Season 6's premiere in the spring of 2016. ADWD ended with a pile of cliffhangers (in part b/c the publisher forced him to stop tinkering). Those shouldn't be resolved on TV.

[sj4iy]

Ahem. It's an industry standard. There's a six year contract, with an option for a seventh year renegotiation along certain lines. After the seventh year, a full-scale renegotiation is required.

Yeah, I remember Kit Harington once mentioned that he had a 6 year contract in an interview.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Ahem. It's an industry standard. There's a six year contract, with an option for a seventh year renegotiation along certain lines. After the seventh year, a full-scale renegotiation is required.

Oh, if that's what the poster is talking about, all that law did was codify a pre-existing common law contract doctrine that you can't order specific performance of a contract for personal services.

You can still have personal services contract for longer than seven years, and you can still seek damages for the breach of contract. All that means is that a court can't order the contracting party to perform the contract after seven years. I'm a California lawyer, by the way, and I had to research opinions under that law for one of my cases last year.

[GERM]

The "overall end game" will manifest itself quite differently in each of the distinct universes. Given the depth and complexity of the novels' world, and Martin's sneaky nature, I believe this is a sure thing.

Also, Martin has years and years to finish the series. He's playful, and he's tricky. I'll bet he won't resist the temptation to switch up his plans to throw curveballs at the faithful. I mean, he's already said things like "I like Bronn and Osha so much in the show that I'm expanding their roles in the books," etc.

Anyway, my original point is that I'll only see him as having let us down if he fails to ship TWOW by Season 6's premiere in the spring of 2016. ADWD ended with a pile of cliffhangers (in part b/c the publisher forced him to stop tinkering). Those shouldn't be resolved on TV.

I agree that the how of it will be different. Nonetheless, if Jon ends up AA and on the Iron Throne in Martin's outline, that's where the show will end. It will give me closure to a series we may never have closure from in written format.

The introduction of Euron and the horn, Arya starting her training as FM, Sansa in the Vale, Marwyn's introduction, Arianne getting in on Doran's plans, Brienne meeting LS, Cersei allowing the Faith Militant to be reborn and insulting the IBB etc. those are all things which will clearly have (or already have had) a huge impact on the outcome of the novels. All of these things happen in AFFC.

There are important events in AFFC, you're correct. It also isn't a poorly written book either, but there is a lot of fluff, and that makes it bad. Martin had 10 major plotlines prior to AFFC. He now has 22. You're telling me he had to add 12 major plotlines to tell the story found in ADWD and AFFC? That would be an ostentatious and ludicrous statement.

[Veltigar]

There are important events in AFFC, you're correct. It also isn't a poorly written book either, but there is a lot of fluff, and that makes it bad. Martin had 10 major plotlines prior to AFFC. He now has 22. You're telling me he had to add 12 major plotlines to tell the story found in ADWD and AFFC? That would be an ostentatious and ludicrous statement.

Hmm, what do you mean exactly? I'm affraid I don't follow?

[Colonel Green]

You can still have personal services contract for longer than seven years

Which the show doesn't, per the actors themselves.