GRRM's death fake outs

[kiasyd]

Got a list saved for this kind of threads: (...)

Excelent list. Is this thread only for POVs? If not, I'm sure the list can go on and on... Clegane brothers for instance.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Excelent list. Is this thread only for POVs? If not, I'm sure the list can go on and on... Clegane brothers for instance.

Only PoVs.

It's a rule for GRRM: PoVs don't die in their own PoV. It's always an outside observer. Well, except Cat, but she isn't exactly dead dead as Tyrion would put it.

[Cas Stark]

I would debate that a couple of these don't qualify as fake death cliffhangers, I never thought for a second that Yoren was going to kill Arya...but it does go to show that the series is crazy with cliffhangers.

So, I guess maybe we could conclude that this is part of GRRM style. It feels that as the series progresses, the more he uses them the less effective they are, but maybe he likes them and thinks of them as one of his "signatures".

[cxvb]

I think UnCat, UnGregor, Bloodraven and fAegon add to it as well. By now, even if a cliffhanger death was a real death, the chances of said character somehow making it back anyway are apparently not too bad.

[marsyao]

Lately, quite a few people on this forum have been discussing the idea of characters who were reported dead being alive, specifically Quentyn Martell and Loras Tyrell. I'm personally on the fence.

My question is for the veterans that have been around since, like 1996, or whatever.

Has the George fooled us before. Did fans actually believe Davos was dead when it was reported? Or Theon?

Be honest.

No one reports Loras is dead

[ChillyPolly]

It's a rule for GRRM: PoVs don't die in their own PoV. It's always an outside observer. Well, except Cat, but she isn't exactly dead dead as Tyrion would put it.

Well, this is a rather meaningless rule, since it is rather difficult (to say the least) to die in one's own PoV. Worst case scenario - something horrible happens to you, and you lose consciousness. Then, you either wake up later ... or you don't.

But, to balance the discussion here, and to emphasize that there are no "rules" - here are some PoVs who may be dead, even though we have not seen them die:

[1] Brienne - was being hanged and has not had a PoV since. She has been sighted, which some think proves she is alive ... but they are forgetting about the possibility of a zombie revenant (like UnCat).

[2] Jaime - last seen being lured away alone by a woman (or her revenant) who had sworn to slay him. After that, he goes missing for weeks or months, and his disappearance is noticed as far away as King's Landing.

[3] Samwell - last seen being lured away - presumably to his death - by an evil cabal who want to ensure he does not speak to the Maesters as Aemon instructed. His enemies include a faceless man ... who will presumably assume his identity after his death. Has not been seen since.

[Northernmonkey]

[1] Brienne - was being hanged and has not had a PoV since. She has been sighted, which some think proves she is alive ... but they are forgetting about the possibility of a zombie revenant (like UnCat).

[2] Jaime - last seen being lured away alone by a woman (or her revenant) who had sworn to slay him. After that, he goes missing for weeks or months, and his disappearance is noticed as far away as King's Landing.

[3] Samwell - last seen being lured away - presumably to his death - by an evil cabal who want to ensure he does not speak to the Maesters as Aemon instructed. His enemies include a faceless man ... who will presumably assume his identity after his death. Has not been seen since.

And Vic, who some people seem to think is dead in some way, or at least has a dead arm.

[RoamingRonin]

Brienne just hasn't had a new POV chapter yet. Sansa wasn't in ADWD either. Jaime and Sam's chapters just end. Samwell, like Brienne and Sansa, just hasn't had a new POV yet.

BrightBlueEyes has the right of it. But of course there must be exceptions to the rule because otherwise certain other theories wouldn't be able to exist.

[SomeDeadMan]

With so many fake deaths, I'm actually really just prepared for everyone to die now. Even if a main character died, I'd certainly not have any sense of shock. Even Jon Snow's death was a bit meh for me. That's what happens when death means nothing anymore. You lose investment in the fate of the characters.

[ChillyPolly]

Brienne just hasn't had a new POV chapter yet.

Just like UnCat

Sansa wasn't in ADWD either.

In Sansa's case, it is confirmed that future chapters are coming. And her last chapter did not end under circumstances suggesting she might be about to die. She is hardly in the same boat.

Jaime and Sam's chapters just end.

They don't JUST end. They end under circumstances suggesting we ought to be worried for them, at the very least.

Samwell, like Brienne and Sansa, just hasn't had a new POV yet.

And we cannot be sure that he ever will.

[RedRahloo76]

Can't agree more on the Rattleshirt/Mance fakeout death. The reveal felt so cheap and disappointing.

All the clues were there in the Mel POV chapter. Her saying that the Glamour works better when he wears the bones.

[RoamingRonin]

And we cannot be sure that he ever will.

Quentyn is dead.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not really sure that a lot of the fake outs listed can truly be called fake outs because the reader should know immediately that these characters aren't actually dead. Yoren had just raced to KL so that he could tell Ned privately about Cat and Tyrion. There is no indication that he's suddenly developed a case of hostility towards the Starks that was so bad he'd rush Ned's daughter off to a corner to kill her privately. Sandor had taken Arya for the ransom and he's telling her that if she tries to go into the castle she's going to die because he and the reader recognize what's going on even if Arya hasn't put it together yet. The reader would be able to know that Sandor isn't going to just kill her when he gets nothing out of it, especially since he's not about to stick around. The reader is fully aware that Cat isn't going to kill Jaime because she's there out of concern for her daughters. She kills Jaime, her girls are as good as dead.

I think it might be a tiny bit unclear with Theon because we have to look back at the previous book to see that Roose and Ramsay are working together and that they'd need a scapegoat. However, while everyone else was getting struck by swords, spears and arrows, Theon merely gets backhanded by Ramsay and his chapter ends with a clear "to be continued"...

Brienne might also be a tad bit unclear, but we've also been with her through her development, watching as she learns the difference between oaths and honor. She uses Jaime's lie of Tarth being a sapphire paradise that could make these people rich if only they spare Podrick. It's no longer about being right and true and following oaths, nor even about her own life but about Pod who is dying.

The other 'fake outs' in the lists that have been provided have similar explanations where it was either immediately clear to the reader that the character was not dead or a tad bit unclear because it required recalling events from previous books to get the big picture. fwiw, Davos on the Blackwater felt like a fake out while I was reading because it seemed as if he'd been built up much like Ned - a dude doing his best for his king and his family - only to lose it all. I haven't reread ACOK Davos in a long while, but I'm sure that someone can point out something within that chapter that indicates the reader had reason to be aware that Davos wasn't dead. I also think that consumers of books and film have been suitably conditioned to expect a body in order to confirm death.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm not really sure that a lot of the fake outs listed can truly be called fake outs because the reader should know immediately that these characters aren't actually dead.

Different readers expect different things, and what they expect is sometimes wrong. When I first read of Arya's axe to the head, my immediate response was "Nice try, George". Perhaps other fans were genuinely nervous. But I still understood that the point of the scene was to make me nervous for Arya and to keep me reading eagerly.

Brienne might also be a tad bit unclear, but we've also been with her through her development, watching as she learns the difference between oaths and honor.

I don't count Brienne as having a lot of plot armor. She is a secondary character, after the main 6, and her POV chapters serve a secondary function. Yes, her arc must serve some purpose to the overall story. But it is not required that she survive.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Brienne just hasn't had a new POV chapter yet. Sansa wasn't in ADWD either. Jaime and Sam's chapters just end. Samwell, like Brienne and Sansa, just hasn't had a new POV yet.

BrightBlueEyes has the right of it. But of course there must be exceptions to the rule because otherwise certain other theories wouldn't be able to exist.

:agree: AFFC and ADWD take place at the same time. So technically no one in either book has had a POV chapter since.

Also, didn't she show up in a Jaime POV after the hanging (which I might add was cut short by her shouting a word [sword])?

[Dr. Pepper]

Different readers expect different things, and what they expect is sometimes wrong. When I first read of Arya's axe to the head, my immediate response was "Nice try, George". Perhaps other fans were genuinely nervous. But I still understood that the point of the scene was to make me nervous for Arya and to keep me reading eagerly.

I'm not saying that all readers are attentive all the time. I even pointed out at least one 'fake out' from the list where it was clear that I was not at all attentive and was expecting someone different due to that lack of attention. I'm merely pointing out that these aren't true fake outs as there was either immediately clear indication that these characters were fine or, where it was unclear, we at least had other parts of the text that would provide the right answer. I also understood that I was meant to be nervous for Arya considering she had been kidnapped by Sandor for the ransom and he forcefully made her stay with him despite the fact that ransom for her has greatly diminished with her mother and brother dead and other known living family members wouldn't know what she looks like. I mean, Sandor's an asshole so there was clear worry about what use he'd make of her after the Red Wedding.

I don't count Brienne as having a lot of plot armor. She is a secondary character, after the main 6, and her POV chapters serve a secondary function. Yes, her arc must serve some purpose to the overall story. But it is not required that she survive.

Well, I don't count Brienne as having a lot of plot armor, either. My point is that we've been through her development and thus should be able to reasonably determine her reaction to Pod being hanged, especially based on her behavior and thoughts immediately before and during her own hanging.

[ChillyPolly]

Well, I don't count Brienne as having a lot of plot armor, either. My point is that we've been through her development and thus should be able to reasonably determine her reaction to Pod being hanged, especially based on her behavior and thoughts immediately before and during her own hanging.

There is no doubt that the word she screamed was "sword". GRRM has confirmed it, and I agree that it can be deduced in any event. I disagree that it follows from this that she must be alive. If she was being strangled to death, then the only person likely to have heard this "scream" was Brienne herself. So why would anyone cut her down? Also, GRRM has already set up a subplot about revenants whose undead existence is driven and defined by their final dying acts and oaths; so this "scream" (essentially signifying "take the sword and kill the Kingslayer") could indeed be significant, even if Brienne did not survive her hanging. And there are plenty of "Kingslayers" for Zombie Brienne to hunt, including Sansa (whom she was already hunting for when she was killed).

[Hangover of the Morning]

All the clues were there in the Mel POV chapter. Her saying that the Glamour works better when he wears the bones.

Well, that's the chapter were the swap was revealed or am I missing something?

[RainGhost]

I admit that I was fooled by Brienne's 'death' and Loras's 'injuries' but I wasn't fooled about Bran, Rickon or Davos. I think it's a good strategy to do a few times and it's fun trying to work out if someone is really dead and questioning people's assumptions (like Cersei's). However, I think GRRM's done it a bit too often now, so I'm wary about what he does with Jon now. Jon's one of my favourite characters and I don't want him to die but it would kind of ruin the idea that nobody's safe if too many characters keep surviving against the odds. I know he's trying to keep the suspense up and keep us worried but still. I don't mind what's he's done with UnCat because she's not really Cat anymore - she's lost something in death.

[RedRahloo76]

Well, that's the chapter were the swap was revealed or am I missing something?

I may have been mistaken, I thought she only revealed that after that. Didn't she give the LoB to john to use as a master of arms before revealing he was actually Mance? I cant find any quotes for or against.