Ukraine 11: Ще не вмерла

[Recovering forum addict]

This is a game changer for me. Let's cancel this sanction bullshit from our part. Germany is the big loser while the US just continues with Business as Usual. If other countries want to continue their sanctions, they can sell their potatoes to the US, for all I care.

It's not a 'game changer' for you, you've been complaining about the sanctions since you started writing in this thread.

[Mr Fixit]

ROSNEFT and ExxonMobil continue their multi-billion USD project in Arctic Oil Exploration. Meanwhile Boeing sells 16 (?) planes to Russian Airline Dobrolet (themselves affected by EU sanctions).

A big fat LOL and fuck the fucking hypocrisy of our US "partners".

Hahaha this is so hilarious and disgusting at the same time..yeah it is easy to sanction when none of your vital Business interests are affected but as soon as this is the case, well "we have to be pragmatic" yadayada.

Meanwhile German companies are already losing 100s of millions worth of contract.

It's fucking unbelievable. And people were calling me names in this thread...

ETA:

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/russland-und-exxonmobil-starten-gemeinsame-oelbohrung-a-985361.html

What about this is surprising? The US is the world champion in this sort of stuff. Nelson Mandela is a terrorist, Saddam is an honored partner worth giving anthrax to back in the eighties. Salvador Allende is a communist threat, Pinochet is a great guy that deserves support. Organ traffickers of the KLA? Freedom fighters, of course! Suharto's genocide in East Timor? Job well done! Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge? Bring it on!

It's sad that the EU is willing to blindly stumble into a trade war that will cost it tens of billions of euros, not to mention instigating a new cold war, over a foreign policy issue that would never have happened in the first place had the US and NATO kept their word given to Gorbachev 25 years ago about NATO's eastward expansion.

[Shryke]

What about this is surprising? The US is the world champion in this sort of stuff. Nelson Mandela is a terrorist, Saddam is an honored partner worth giving anthrax to back in the eighties. Salvador Allende is a communist threat, Pinochet is a great guy that deserves support. Organ traffickers of the KLA? Freedom fighters, of course! Suharto's genocide in East Timor? Job well done! Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge? Bring it on!

It's sad that the EU is willing to blindly stumble into a trade war that will cost it tens of billions of euros, not to mention instigating a new cold war, over a foreign policy issue that would never have happened in the first place had the US and NATO kept their word given to Gorbachev 25 years ago about the eastward expansion.

Uh, a ton of the EU is in NATO. So the EU is ...dragging itself into a foreign policy issue?

[Mr Fixit]

Uh, a ton of the EU is in NATO. So the EU is ...dragging itself into a foreign policy issue?

That too. However, I doubt this would've happened without some "outside" transatlantic help.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mr. Fixit,

Are you going to claim that Yanukovich was deposed because a US official gave cookies to the protestors?

[Altherion]

To get some perspective...meanwhile the company I am working for has lost multi-million Euro contracts for equipment in the OIL & GAS sector (!!!) and power plant contracts. And ExxonMobil just goes on...

How do all the people who cried SOLIDARITY explain this US behavior, the one country who pushed hardest for sanctions in the first place?

You are thinking of the wrong actors. The US government appears to lead this effort and provides diplomatic cover in the form of claims about democracy and the like, but if you look at the results, it should be clear that this is really a question of who gets to loot Ukraine. Yanukovich was a thief, but he was a Russian-aligned thief whereas the new guy (Poroshenko) is a Western-aligned thief. The sanctions are there to prop him up so that he doesn't lose half of Ukraine to the separatists and/or Russia (the more he loses, the less is left for looting by Western companies afterwards).

So why doesn't Exxon-Mobil fall under the sanctions? Basically, because it's too big. In recent years, it's been consistently ranked in the top 3 of the world's largest corporations. Its deal with Russia is probably comparable in magnitude to the total profit is expected to be extracted from Ukraine. Thus, it goes untouched while your (multi-million, but still relatively small) company is expected to shoulder the losses, not so much because one is from the US and the other is from Germany, but because one is just so huge.

Are you going to claim that Yanukovich was deposed because a US official gave cookies to the protestors?

Well, cookies and five billion dollars (not directly to the protestors, of course -- to benefit "democratic institutions" over many years), but yes, the protestors certainly had some international assistance.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

There are countless historical examples of countries making early land grabs under these pretexts. Our people are in danger. This is historically our territory anyway. We have to intervene... Open a history book on any random page and something like that will pop right up. So why choose Hitler if you don't want all the 50 million dead-World War-Auschwitz-Holocaust connection? Well, obviously because people DO want the 50 million dead-World War-Auschwitz-Holocaust connection as it sounds sufficiently dire and is a catchy way to mobilise the population against the enemy du jour. And of course to stifle discussion. How can a reasonable person defend Hitler!?!? It's Munich all over again! Appeasement doesn't work!

It's a strawman argument designed to shut up the detractors of Western foreign policy by insinuating they are cowardly or ignorant people who have learned nothing from history. Best not use it then if there's a desire for honest discussion.

This is just ridiculous, and clearly you can't read.

I said the early actions, specifically separating it from the greater regime. Dumbass.

Enjoy Putin at his best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjrlTMvirVo

[Arakan]

It's not a 'game changer' for you, you've been complaining about the sanctions since you started writing in this thread.

If you wanna comment, please comment on the issue, not on my person. Thank you very much :).

It would be really great if some of the reasonable users in this thread, who opposed my position about the "stupidity" of the sanctions and who attacked me because of inadequate solidarity towards my fellow Eastern Europeans, could comment on thir issue.

I just hear a big silence.

@ Mr Fixit and Attherion

at the end of the day I am not surprised at all but it is (as always) one think to assume sth and then really see it before one own eyes. I am more angry about our (German) own idiocy in that matter...as if something else could have been expected lol.

For the fun of it and if wished I will post tomorrow the exact wording of the company intern circulaire I received last week wrt "solidarity" and why we must now join the sanctions and how we support the decision of the "international community". It's rather hilarious and a bit too much ironic right now. :)

[Suttree]

Well, cookies and five billion dollars (not directly to the protestors, of course -- to benefit "democratic institutions" over many years), but yes, the protestors certainly had some international assistance.

You forgot to mention how Victoria Nuland is single handedly responsible for everything that's happened.

[Mr Fixit]

Mr. Fixit,

Are you going to claim that Yanukovich was deposed because a US official gave cookies to the protestors?

Do tell why he was overthrown. Or do you think US has nothing to do with it whatsoever? Does only Russia meddle in internal affairs of other countries? Or do others do it as well from time to time? And if they do, is it solely because of altruistic motives?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mr. Fixit,

They were really good cookies. Other than that perhaps he was removed for pissing off the wrong people inside Ukraine. Outside the realm of possiblity, or are you going with the cookie hypothesis?

[Suttree]

Do tell why he was overthrown.

Victoria Nuland bakes one hell of a cookie.

Or perhaps it was the massive corruption, economic mismanagement, beating/torturing/jailing opponents and crimes against humanity? Pretty much a toss up really.

[Mr Fixit]

Or perhaps it was the massive corruption, economic mismanagement, beating/torturing/jailing opponents and crimes against humanity? Pretty much a toss up really.

Pity then King Abdullah is still in power, wouldn't you agree? Or any of the other "good" dictators the world over.

More to the point, I believe the people of Ukraine should have the right to choose their own leaders, without any interference from either West or East. I just hate the hypocrisy where only one side is allowed to meddle. Good intentions and all that jazz. Anyway, gentlemen Sikorsky, Fabius, and Steinmeier really did a bang up job on February 19. Honored their signatures in the truest tradition of James Baker's successors.

[Altherion]

Victoria Nuland bakes one hell of a cookie.

Sure, those and the five billion dollars she explicitly said we poured into Ukraine will buy you a revolution (maybe even two).

Or perhaps it was the massive corruption, economic mismanagement, beating/torturing/jailing opponents and crimes against humanity? Pretty much a toss up really.

Amusingly enough, every single item on your list is equally applicable to the current Ukrainian government (well, except maybe crimes against humanity -- Yanukovich balked at slaughtering the thugs who seized the Maidan whereas the current government has killed well over a thousand of its citizens).

[Horza]

Of course, if it wasn't for the US funding civil society groups and NGOs Ukrainians wouldn't have the slightest complaint at their kleptocratic president locking them further into Russian orbit.

[Altherion]

They would have still complained and perhaps even protested, but without the unwavering Western support for regime change, they might have settled for early elections rather than a coup followed by a civil war.

[Suttree]

Amusingly enough, every single item on your list is equally applicable to the current Ukrainian government (well, except maybe crimes against humanity -- Yanukovich balked at slaughtering the thugs who seized the Maidan whereas the current government has killed well over a thousand of its citizens).

It's difficult to take you seriously at this point. Why not at least pretend to be objective and have a realistic discussion on the topic? You and Miodrag stand out as by far the two worst on this count. Ever since this started you've ignored events as they happen, moved the goal posts or simply stopped posting every time you're shown to be wrong(Russian involvement in Crimea, the costs associated with the land grab etc.) yes yes we know, Victoria Nuland is a fascist puppet master who single single handedly manufactured the coup. Eagerly awaiting you detailing how she pulled it off.

[Horza]

nm

[Horza]

They would have still complained and perhaps even protested, but without the unwavering Western support for regime change, they might have settled for early elections rather than a coup followed by a civil war.

Weird, because the Western position in February was for early elections and I seem to recall them even negotiating with Yanukovych for such, successfully, and it not being all that popular with the people in the square.

But I guess everyone in the square was a fascist thug from darkest Ivano-Frankivsk.

[Mr Fixit]

Well, a coup is a coup, my friend.

As you well know, Yanukovich and the opposition leaders signed an agreement to end the crisis and the bloodshed on February 21 this year. There were also the signatures of French, Polish, and German foreign ministers on that paper. It was agreed that:

1. The previous constitution of 2004, that takes much power away from the president, will be reinstated
   
2. A government of national unity will be established
   
3. Presidential elections will be held no later than December. New electoral laws will be passed in accordance with the OSCE rules
   
4. Investigation into recent acts of violence will be conducted under joint monitoring from the authorities, the opposition and the Council of Europe.
   
5. The authorities will not impose a state of emergency. The authorities and the opposition will refrain from the use of violence. The Parliament will adopt the 3rd amnesty. Both parties will undertake serious efforts for the normalisation of life.
   

It was a reasonable deal that would end the violence and include all relevant political factors in Ukraine in a new government in preparation for snap elections. Less than 24 hours later, the opposition stomped all across the deal in a coup, with Western signatories and guarantors watching and applauding. Imagine the reaction had the other side done just that, broken the deal it had just signed and proceeded to crush the protests unilaterally. But since it was the good guys who did it -- Batkyvshchyna of oligarch Timoshenko and Tyahnybok's Svoboda called Social-National Party of Ukraine some years earlier that regularly engaged in torch-lit night marches in uniforms with wolfangels on their sleeves) -- I suppose that's okay.

As for the coup and the protests, here are reports from Western-leaning Kyiv Post, a newspaper in English: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poll-half-of-ukrainians-dont-support-kyiv-euromaidan-rb-334469.html

When one doesn't care what one half of your population wants, it's a sure recipe for civil war.