Howdyphillip Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Question:As a home or business owner standing his ground, are you allowed to shoot a looter who is attacking your property?How long before that starts happening?As a responsible citizen and generally well adjusted human being the answer to that question is no. You do not execute someone for stealing or destroying property. I wish that didn't need to be pointed out to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The people of Ferguson have already been protecting property from looters and riot tourists, though not with firearms. And remember, we're looking at the police response to a very few unarmed looters. I don't think anyone wants to see what happens if the cops find a gun being held anywhere. And I'm completely not a lawyer, but I think you could make a case for it, at least. But, of course, if you did, you'd be arrested and tried in a court of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 As a responsible citizen and generally well adjusted human being the answer to that question is no. You do not execute someone for stealing or destroying property. I wish that didn't need to be pointed out to you.If you try to stop them using non-lethal means, and they continue to attack, thus placing your life in danger you can in fact legally shoot in self defence.You are not legally required to stand back and let people loot your house or business premises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 HP,What about physically removing the looter from your house or business? Should the looter be able to claim assault and battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 The people of Ferguson have already been protecting property from looters and riot tourists, though not with firearms. And remember, we're looking at the police response to a very few unarmed looters. I don't think anyone wants to see what happens if the cops find a gun being held anywhere. Some business owners guarded their shops with firearms, according to reports over the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I don't want anyone else shot. But does anyone really have a problem with someone guarding their home or business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm going to take a slightly different position. I do care about the looting. Having my home or business destroyed because my local police force is willing to kill when it's not apporpriate doesn't make sense as the businesses aren't what people should be directing their anger towards.However, attempting to then use the looting as some bizarre post hoc rationalization that the earlier shooting is somehow, now, justified makes even less sense than the looting. The two issues are linked only tangentially.You keep saying this. Who has done that?Did you even read the article though?Police were far outnumbered. Only responded with tear gas AFTER the crowd was already violent and had toppled over a media van. This is not even remotely comparable. And this is just an example among many. White people riot over everything from soccer or hockey games to the firing of people who protect child molesters and they are rarely, if ever, met with the same level of police violence this group of PEACEFUL protesters encountered.It's not race baiting all. If you think the overblown police response in Ferguson has nothing to do with the protester's skin color then i'm not sure what to say.You claimed tear gas was not used at the Penn State riots. You were wrong. Fess up and stop trying to rationalize your close-mindedness with further faulty statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Some business owners guarded their shops with firearms, according to reports over the weekend.Yep.http://fox4kc.com/2014/08/16/looting-in-ferguson-store-owners-stand-guard-as-police-stand-down/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If you try to stop them using non-lethal means, and they continue to attack, thus placing your life in danger you can in fact legally shoot in self defence.You are not legally required to stand back and let people loot your house or business premises.I guess you'd probably get away with it even without a direct merely due to the castle doctrine. Which only shows a big problem, no-one should get killed over mere property. I don't want anyone else shot. But does anyone really have a problem with someone guarding their home or business?Depends, to some limit it is fine. Beyond that: yes I have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Tempra,Perhaps not a post hoc rationalization but an effort to change the focus from the initial shooting and the police overstep subsequent to the shooting. How can threatening to shoot a reporter for filming be rationalized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I don't want anyone else shot. But does anyone really have a problem with someone guarding their home or business? Scot I have long admired your enduring mission to try and maintain a constant position of "reasonability", but I think this is ultimately doomed to failure, as it is born from the idealistic hope that for every issue there will be a reasonable position that everyone would agree to if you just give them a chance to state their opinion, do some introspection, and come to a mutually acceptable answer. The reality is, however, that people are just too different. So your open ended questions will always get diametrically opposing responses. Some people genuinely believe that violence is never the answer, and that you should be happy to sacrifice your business built up over 20 years, or your home and all the sentimental value attached to its contents, if it means avoiding bloodshed. Others, like me, believe that there is not even a debate about the fact that you should stand your ground and protect what is yours. These positions will never be reconciled. Not through a million years of Ser Scott's genuine attempts to bring people to the middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Tempra,Perhaps not a post hoc rationalization but an effort to change the focus from the initial shooting and the police overstep subsequent to the shooting. How can threatening to shoot a reporter for filming be rationalized?Would you prefer the media ignore the rioting and looting? There is a week-plus crisis going on. Of course that will distract from the initial shooting. People should stand down and allow time for justice to work. I can't really think of any circumstances where cop should threaten a reporter for filming. I haven't watched the videos myself but I did click the link and I noticed that there are apparently "audio" issues during the key statements (ditto for the video of the cop threatening to mace the reporter). I am a little hesitant to pass judgment at this point, particularly after the Zimmerman 911 tape fiasco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 And now there is a second shooting of a black man by police being protested, this time in Los Angeles. http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Protests-Planned-After-Fatal-Shooting-of-Man-by-LAPD-271594381.html This thing is spreading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Tempra,I'd prefer the protests and looting be put in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Would you prefer the media ignore the rioting and looting? There is a week-plus crisis going on. Of course that will distract from the initial shooting. People should stand down and allow time for justice to work.I can't really think of any circumstances where cop should threaten a reporter for filming. I haven't watched the videos myself but I did click the link and I noticed that there are apparently "audio" issues during the key statements (ditto for the video of the cop threatening to mace the reporter). I am a little hesitant to pass judgment at this point, particularly after the Zimmerman 911 tape fiasco. It's incredibly clear what's being said, the threat starts about the six second mark. The only thing that's unclear is that the cop isn't in video; so we just have the reporter's word that 1) It was a cop and 2) That 'this' was a gun rather than mace or something else. However, why would the reporter lie? And, more than that, there were several reporters who said they were threatened at various points in the night by police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Tempra,I'd prefer the protests and looting be put in context.They are? I think every article I have read on the major networks has said thay the protests and looting are in response to the shooting death of Michael Brown by Ferguson PD. His death has not become a side story; however, the rioting and looting is more pressing at the moment because of the general lawlessness. If the cop is charged, the process will take 12-18 months minimum. Everyone needs to take a breath and see how everything plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Fez,Yeah it's clear. He also says "YOU'RE IN OUR WAY GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Most of the time when people are at the point of protest, it means they have no faith that justice will work if they go back home and wait for things to play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I also love the offiers hiding the names of the abusive officers in their midst. Is there anything that requires the officers to ID themselves when such ID is requested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 They are? I think every article I have read on the major networks has said thay the protests and looting are in response to the shooting death of Michael Brown by Ferguson PD. His death has not become a side story; however, the rioting and looting is more pressing at the moment because of the general lawlessness. If the cop is charged, the process will take 12-18 months minimum. Everyone needs to take a breath and see how everything plays out. Ah yes, the Deep Breath, great equalizer and harbinger of profound social change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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