awesome possum Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 That is unfair to all of the honest police who aren't bad apples. That might be where the us vs them attitude comes from. Say a cop has been honest, fair, by the books his entire career. He's a good guy who has won the trust of his community and wouldn't think of abusing his power. But one day while responding to a call he witnesses one of his fellow police officers say something to the effect, "I'm gonna show these niggers." He then proceeds, without provocation and with no apparent sign of any law being broken, attempts to detain a black man against his will. When that man inevitably struggles, it becomes resisting arrest and that man now has several cops trying to take him down. The good cop joins in despite knowing that that man did nothing wrong. The asshole cop gets a few punches in the scrum as they try to wrangle the man and get the cuffs on. He plants his knee on the back of the man's neck and puts all his weight on it. The man, who is completely innocent, has to go to the hospital for his injuries. The good cop, though disturbed, says and does nothing. Is he still a good apple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Fury Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 For fucks sake, are we really using hypothetical imaginary scenarios to justify our blanket judgments now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Suppose a coo, the pope, and a Rodney King are stranded on a desert island. They all wonder.WTF.this has.to do with anything...Edit: cop not coo...Eta : nm, kf said it better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturn Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 The us vs. them stems from the fact that police have to vigilante 100% of the time, because there are a lot of real threats they face every day (mainly from our insane gun laws). Unfortunately, how this feels to the general public is over-vigilance. At the end of the day, it seems more more that there is an attitude of judge and enforce rather than protect and serve. I rambled. I figure those that actually take the time to read my posts are probably used to it. I had missed this. By "have to vigilante" I'm going to assume you meant, "have to be vigilant". Even though we haven't agreed with much, I think this is spot on. It isn't just guns that cause the vigilance. Without going into who is at fault (ok I will, criminals, the police, and the advent of social media), the police are facing more and more anger just going on routine calls or pulling someone over for a traffic infraction. When I started law enforcement over 20 years ago, this was not the case. Cops are definitely more high strung when they go out on patrol then they used to be. It used to be a cop faced a person that disliked or hated them just for the uniform every once in a while. Now it seems it can be a daily or at least weekly occurrence if you are a patrol officer. Cops can repeatedly see bad stuff that happens to other cops daily through social media, just like citizens can daily see stuff bad cops do. A psychology student could probably work on a masters describing how that can change a person. It's the constant vigilance AND the facing of constant resentment that puts cops on edge. Being vigilant is a good thing, being on edge is bad for all involved. I've commented here before that when I entered law enforcement I had a problem with being forceful when it was needed. You can skip to the next paragraph if you've heard this one before. When I needed to be stern, command someone to stay in place, stop fighting, stop running, etc, my "Hey you stop" almost got laughs from not only other cops but the people I was trying to control. It just wasn't in my personality to yell at people and the criminal element could see right through this. I actually started telling myself to act more forceful in these situations. Not typical encounters, the ones where chaos needed to be put in order. Fast forward a few years and I realized I wasn't acting anymore when I started yelling. People seemed to obey me more (a good thing), but my personality had definitely changed. It wasn't just the repeated "act" that caused it but what my rookie self ended up facing for years (hatred, carnage, ruined lives) that made me a bit of an asshole at times. Thus, I started forcefully toning it back and focusing on when to turn that inner-asshole on (sorry, sometimes it IS needed) and when to turn it off (most of the time). I found a middle ground and my experience has become one of the talks I give when I get lucky enough to have a rookie's attention. Back to judge & enforce vs. protect & serve? Yes I can see that being a problem since, depending on the city you work in, protect & serve often does take a back seat to "develop PC & arrest", repeat until the shift is over. Getting to protect & serve, the motto of many departments, is probably not a luxury often visited in some cities. When your 8 to 12 hour shift is constant episodes of, respond, did he do it (judge) then arrest or release (enforce), all day repeated every day for years, yes you could easily develop a pseudo Judge Dredd mentality. Solutions? Training. Departmental psychologists (typically laughed at, they shouldn't be) keeping an eye on officers. Social media campaigns to improve police-citizen relations. Better psych screeings for new hires. Programs to steer officers going towards the dark side back to the light (sounds good, in practice?). Making sure your department has the balls to discipline and/or fire someone when it's needed. Cops in a department that cracks the whip are going to act so much better then those that have no fear of retaliation. This last one may be the most important one, but police unions and upper management not wanting a controversy often get in the way of lower ranking supervisors trying to dish out discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myshkin Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Say a cop has been honest, fair, by the books his entire career. He's a good guy who has won the trust of his community and wouldn't think of abusing his power. But one day while responding to a call he witnesses one of his fellow police officers say something to the effect, "I'm gonna show these niggers." He then proceeds, without provocation and with no apparent sign of any law being broken, attempts to detain a black man against his will. When that man inevitably struggles, it becomes resisting arrest and that man now has several cops trying to take him down. The good cop joins in despite knowing that that man did nothing wrong. The asshole cop gets a few punches in the scrum as they try to wrangle the man and get the cuffs on. He plants his knee on the back of the man's neck and puts all his weight on it. The man, who is completely innocent, has to go to the hospital for his injuries. The good cop, though disturbed, says and does nothing. Is he still a good apple? What you forgot to mention in this scenario is that the bad cop, knowing he's been partnered with Johnny Rulebook, has planted a bomb in one of the local schools. He orders the good cop to back him up in everything he does, or he'll blow the school sky high. The good cop, being a good cop, manages to get word to the FBI about the nefarious plot. The FBI asks him to play along with the bad cop's demands until such time as they can find and disarm the bomb. Over the next three days the good cop witnesses, and in some cases is party to, some pretty disturbing stuff. He comforts himself with the knowledge that he is trying to save the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent shcool children. Finally the FBI locates the bomb and dismantles it safely. Upon receiving this welcome news the good cop immediately takes the bad cop into custody. When his self-sacrificing actions are revealed the good cop is hailed by all and sundry as a great hero. Bet you feel pretty foolish now for questioning the good cop's integrity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Everyone is completely missing the point of Awesome Possum's hypothetical, which was reasonable and not far-fetched at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myshkin Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Everyone is completely missing the point of Awesome Possum's hypothetical, which was reasonable and not far-fetched at all. And also not relevant in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 What would happen if a bad cop was assigned to train a good cop? Let's just hypothetically say that they are together on the first day of training when they witness a drug deal going down in a park. Let's also say that the bad cop confiscates marijuana and lets the dealers go. When they get back to the patrol car, the bad cop proceeds to hold a gun to the good cops head and forces him to smoke the pot. Afterwards, the bad cop tells the good cop it is laced with PCP. What would happen then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 And also not relevant in any way.In some way yes.Esprit de corps and protection of "one of us" is a problem in all police forces around the world. So maybe (!) it can become a problem in this case as well? The original example was provocative but asked a relevant question nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 What would happen if a bad cop was assigned to train a good cop? Let's just hypothetically say that they are together on the first day of training when they witness a drug deal going down in a park. Let's also say that the bad cop confiscates marijuana and lets the dealers go. When they get back to the patrol car, the bad cop proceeds to hold a gun to the good cops head and forces him to smoke the pot. Afterwards, the bad cop tells the good cop it is laced with PCP. What would happen then? Eventually the bad cop is going to take money and pay off some Russian Organised Crime Figures and they are going to take the money and kill him. And the PD is going to lie and say he was serving a warrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Flashheart Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Eventually the bad cop is going to take money and pay off some Russian Organised Crime Figures and they are going to take the money and kill him. And the PD is going to lie and say he was serving a warrant.I also get the feeling Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog will be involved somewhere along the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I feel like we are missing something. Where does the hooker with the heart of gold come into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summah Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 And then the hooker with the heart of gold and a magical negro will help the good cop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myshkin Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 In some way yes.Esprit de corps and protection of "one of us" is a problem in all police forces around the world.So maybe (!) it can become a problem in this case as well?The original example was provocative but asked a relevant question nonetheless. Certainly not relevant when responding to a post saying that it's unfair to hold all cops accountable for the actions of a rotten few. The hypothetical proves nothing. The problem is that as a hypothetical the example is entirely the product of AP's mind, and as such can be made to illustrate any point AP wants it to. Considering it is a pointless endeavor. Let's take his example, but this time the good cop stops the bad cop, reports him to his superiors, and testifies against him at his disciplinary hearing. What does that prove? What point does it make? Or how about this: the good cop sees the bad cop's actions and crosses the street toward him, but before he gets there he's hit by a garbage truck and dies, his intentions unknown and lost forever. We could do this all day, and get nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reny of Storms End Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Eventually the bad cop is going to take money and pay off some Russian Organised Crime Figures and they are going to take the money and kill him. And the PD is going to lie and say he was serving a warrant.This bad cop will also have an inflated sense of self, believing that even gigantic creatures of fantasy don't got shit on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagilki Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 But without good cop/bad cop how will a police interview ever be done properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 But without good cop/bad cop how will a police interview ever be done properly? They'd switch to good cop/dadaist cop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Olenna Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Y'all lost me on the hyperthenticals ( :p ). I see people are wondering why the robbery tapes were released? It's because the entire nation is watching the events of this shooting unfold. It doesn't take much for videos, recordings, social media crap to get leaked. The media takes it and runs with it because people love to know this kinda shit. Is it relevant to the case? We don't know yet (for certain) but most likely not. Does that matter? Nope. Good luck finding a jury that hasn't seen the clip. Does anyone know yet if they have released any info on the officer's injuries? I saw yesterday that he was taken to the hospital on the night in question for injuries and I would like to know what exactly they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 If the thread drift from riots and police violence toward the question of whether or not Brown's killing was justified originates in what your media choose to focus on at the moment, then I must say I am impressed with the mastery of the current police communication guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Ferguson under curfewI guess I get it from a public officials point of view, in that this is an attempt to catch a breather for those operating essential services such as ambulances, but man I really hope they call off the curfew. It seems pretty detrimental to the situation as a whole, poisoning the morale of the citizens of Ferguson, and reinforcing their understandable lack of faith in city/public officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.