The power of Beric and Catelyn comes from the Old Gods, not the Lord of Light, and Jaime will be next.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I've raised a point related to this thread multiple times before:

Everyone assumes Melisandre will resurrect Jon because Thoros did it in the Riverlands. But Thoros is a failed priest, he gave no sacrifice, not once in 7 resurrections. And I have yet to see the purpose of R'hllor in the Riverlands. So I'm not convinced R'hllor was behind the Riverlands resurrections.

I'd rather see the real Death God: The Stranger of the Seven, the Lion of Night, the god of the Others, the Great Other. They are all the same, according to the Faceless Men. Beric and Stoneheart could be doing what the Seven would do: judging and punishing. Cat herself is looking like a Silent Sister:

A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.
Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. Brienne felt a shiver climb her spine. Stoneheart.

Like LSH, the silent sisters never speak. And we had a previous meeting between Cat and Silent sisters:

But outside her chambers she found Utherydes Wayn waiting with two women clad in grey, their faces cowled save for their eyes. Catelyn knew at once why they were here.

I believe Stoneheart has been resurrected by the Stranger and is doing his will.

I absolutely agree with you that it will not be Melisandre to resurrect Jon. I used to think that a while ago but then upon re-reads and re-listens, it dawned on me that I think Val will be the one to help Jon for many reasons. First, and this is just one, she and Dalla were given names by George that basically mean healer and there are clues that both actually are healers and/or woods witches. Val very quickly became my top favorite female in the series. I think Mel, being the fanatical follower of the Red Rahloo may try to the bitter end to enact the AA prophecy and she may be the one who "donates" herself to the sword as the Nissa Nissa portion of the prophecy. This also parallels Jojen and the possible paste theory. 

Mel may be part of the Jon rebirth, but I think it will depend way more on the old gods as Jon starts to recognize this in Ghost being of the OG's and then a minute later when he knows Ghost is a part of him... and stuff. Val is pretty much an OG walking billboard.

That line about the handmaidens of the Stranger. stood out to me big time the first time around, but I guess at the time I didn't dare correspond that to an actual event. Thank you for pointing that line out. Now I don't feel so crazy.

I think there are some links down in my sig line that go more into Val and Dalla. I can't see it for myself on my screen, but I don't think I deleted them????

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I absolutely agree with you that it will not be Melisandre to resurrect Jon. I used to think that a while ago but then upon re-reads and re-listens, it dawned on me that I think Val will be the one to help Jon for many reasons. First, and this is just one, she and Dalla were given names by George that basically mean healer and there are clues that both actually are healers and/or woods witches. Val very quickly became my top favorite female in the series. I think Mel, being the fanatical follower of the Red Rahloo may try to the bitter end to enact the AA prophecy and she may be the one who "donates" herself to the sword as the Nissa Nissa portion of the prophecy. This also parallels Jojen and the possible paste theory. 

Mel may be part of the Jon rebirth, but I think it will depend way more on the old gods as Jon starts to recognize this in Ghost being of the OG's and then a minute later when he knows Ghost is a part of him... and stuff. Val is pretty much an OG walking billboard.

That line about the handmaidens of the Stranger. stood out to me big time the first time around, but I guess at the time I didn't dare correspond that to an actual event. Thank you for pointing that line out. Now I don't feel so crazy.

I think there are some links down in my sig line that go more into Val and Dalla. I can't see it for myself on my screen, but I don't think I deleted them????

Oh, and to add, Mel relies on glamours to get her shit done. Val is au naturale

[BalerionTheCat]

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, and to add, Mel relies on glamours to get her shit done. Val is au naturale

I'm a big fan of Val too ... and Jon. I don't know if the "bittersweet ending" is for him. If he will have to leave, like Frodo in the LOTR. But I believe Val will be with him.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 2/13/2016 at 4:54 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm a big fan of Val too ... and Jon. I don't know if the "bittersweet ending" is for him. If he will have to leave, like Frodo in the LOTR. But I believe Val will be with him.

Agreed. I also don't think they will get married an have a batch of their own puppies, but she will be important to him in some big way.

*I just happened to come across this post of mine from several months back and I can tell you for sure, after much more research and re-reading, that Val is Jon's future.

[bemused]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Agreed. I also don't think they will get married an have a batch of their own puppies, but she will be important to him in some big way.

Oh, I do think there could be pup or two. Val is to Jon as Dalla was to Mance... his seer and his true queen.. and I think that the warning given by Benjen in AGoT.. that he'd never get to hold a child of his own, if he joined the NW, will not hold true for Jon and his own thoughts when Stannis offered him WF and Val .. that he'd have to win her love and she might give him children, will come to pass. Benjen's warning seemed a sure thing to Jon (not so much anymore), while his own thoughts seemed a fantasy.. I think he's already come a good way to realising the winning her love part.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 2/13/2016 at 6:44 PM, bemused said:

Oh, I do think there could be pup or two. Val is to Jon as Dalla was to Mance... his seer and his true queen.. and I think that the warning given by Benjen in AGoT.. that he'd never get to hold a child of his own, if he joined the NW, will not hold true for Jon and his own thoughts when Stannis offered him WF and Val .. that he'd have to win her love and she might give him children, will come to pass. Benjen's warning seemed a sure thing to Jon (not so much anymore), while his own thoughts seemed a fantasy.. I think he's already come a good way to realising the winning her love part.

I think Val may see Jon as having "stolen" her in the proper wilding way. She asked twice if Jon killed Jarl, the Thief constellation was in the sky when Jon did something with her (I am blanking at the moment) and she rides out one way and comes back garbed in white which sounds a little wedding dressy. I hope Jon finds happiness... But this is where I think GRRM's bittersweet ending may happen. They may end up wanting for each other but something stands in the way. Well, that is probably going to happen in more than one place but this is where it happens with Jon. 

 

*I just happened to come across this post of mine from several months back and I can tell you for sure, after much more research and re-reading, that Val is Jon's future.

[bemused]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think Val may see Jon as having "stolen" her in the proper wilding way. She asked twice if Jon killed Jarl, the Thief constellation was in the sky when Jon did something with her (I am blanking at the moment) and she rides out one way and comes back garbed in white which sounds a little wedding dressy. I hope Jon finds happiness... But this is where I think GRRM's bittersweet ending may happen. They may end up wanting for each other but something stands in the way. Well, that is probably going to happen in more than one place but this is where it happens with Jon. 

Without taking the thread OT in a big way. here's an archived thread of mine;

 

I think there's plenty to say about Val.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This line really mucks up my idea about Jaime...

Quote

I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.

Jaime IV, Storm 31

I'm gonna have to rework the OP...

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

She had spoken of Arya too, her younger daughter, but Arya was lost, most likely dead by now. Sansa, though . . . I will find her, my lady, Brienne swore to Lady Catelyn's restless shade. I will never stop looking. I will give up my life if need be, give up my honor, give up all my dreams, but I will find her.

Brienne II, Feast 9

I wonder whether Catelyn’s restless shade heard this?  

[aryagonnakill#2]

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Brienne II, Feast 9

I wonder whether Catelyn’s restless shade heard this?  

If it did, she probably wouldn't have been so hostile to Brienne when they met.  Could just be potential foreshadowing that they will meet.  She had a narrow miss at saltpans.

[Sigella]

On 20 augusti 2014 at 11:02 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

"It's too dangerous. Those stones looked loose to me, and that red ivy's poisonous. There has to be a postern gate."

 

They found it on the north side of the castle, half-hidden behind a huge blackberry bramble.

In The Sworn Sword blackberries is mentioned like 20 times as a burial ground for the Osgrey's who died on the Red Grass Field - fighting for the black dragon.

[Sigella]

Blackberry = Blackfyre?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

In The Sworn Sword blackberries is mentioned like 20 times as a burial ground for the Osgrey's who died on the Red Grass Field - fighting for the black dragon.

Actually, the word “blackberr...” occurs five times in The Sworn Sword.

In Bran II, Game 8, a man in the glass gardens at Winterfell used to give Ban a blackberry when the boy visited him, which is creepy because blackberries in literature often are associated with Lucifer, but they are also often used in literature to symbolize ignorance and/or arrogance. Check out the scene before Tyron’s trial in the Vale...

Quote

 

Pitchers of thick cream and baskets of blackberries had been set out, and the guests were sipping a sweet orange-scented wine from engraved silver cups. A fool's festival, Brynden had called it, and small wonder.

Across the terrace, Lysa laughed gaily at some jest of Lord Hunter's, and nibbled a blackberry from the point of Ser Lyn Corbray's dagger.

 

Catelyn VII, Game 40

Renly dined on blackberry tarts at Bitterbridge in Catelyn II, Clash 22, and Cersei served Tyrion blackberry tarts when she served him with Alayaya in Tyrion XII, Clash 54. The Lannisters broke their fast with blackberry honeycakes on the morning of the purple wedding in Sansa IV, Storm 59. Yoren had the younger recruits picking blackberries on the way north from King’s Landing in Arya III, Clash 9, and Hot Pie found a blackberry bush and stripped it bare after Yoren was killed. Jaime, Brienne, and Cleos dined on blackberries on their way to from Riverun in Jaime II, Storm 11. In Bran VI, Clash 46, we surmise that blackberries grow in the godswood at Winterfell. In Davos II, Storm 10, we learn that Jate Blackberry likely died during the Battle of the Blackwater. His kin, Omer Blackberry helped Davos smuggle Edric Storm off Dragonstone in Davos VI, Storm 63. A Liddle (my guess is the Middle Liddle) gave Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds some oatcakes with blackberries as they sojourned in his cave on their way north in Bran II, Storm 24. Blackberry brambles grew at Oldstones as we learned in the Epilogue to Storm. On the way to Hayford, a squire brough Jaime a helm full of blackberries in Jaime III, Feast 27.

Spoiler

Arianne will have to travel down deep ravines choked with blackberry brambles in Arianne II, Winds.

Nevertheless, Brienne finds the postern gate behind the blackberry bramble, and she warns Podrick to stay away from the poisonous red ivy in Brienne IV, Feast 20. Interestingly, she shoulders through the blackberry bramble and pulls on a rusted ring. And Illyrio serves Tyrion blackberry wine and blackberries in cream on the way to meet Griff and his noble lad in Tyrion III, Dance 8.

But there are too many scenes with blackberries that have nothing to do with The Blackfyre to associate blackberries to The Blackfyre.

[Durran Durrandon]

So, I just saw this. I haven't had the chance to go through the whole thread. I just wanted to say, I have proposed this particular crack pot before. I have little confidence in it, but I like it and think it fits.

I don't think Stone Heart is the soulless revanent that she is depicted as on this forum. She is vengeful for sure and damaged, just as Beric was soul weary and tired, but everything Beric says in Arya chapters indicates a person who is soulfully worried about the humanity he has lost and that the fire is burning away his identity. I thin before the end we will see there is enough of Catelyn left in Lady Stone Heart for redemption. When she orders Brienne to fight Jaime in a trial by combat, Brienne will win possibly because Jaime lets her win in an obvious way (though likely just because he is no match for her with just one hand). Brienne will charge Catelyn with breaking her vow to ask her to do no dishonorable act. Catelyn will then give the fire to Jaime. Though it is likely that Rob's will has already been passed north by other means, it is also possibly that part of her redemptive arc will include charging Brienne with the task of taking Rob's will to Jon, before giving her life to resurrect Jaime. This all of course implies that at some point Brienne will die and Jaime will pass the flame to Brienne.
 

Again, it's likely crackpot, put I like it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, I just saw this. I haven't had the chance to go through the whole thread. I just wanted to say, I have proposed this particular crack pot before. I have little confidence in it, but I like it and think it fits.

I don't think Stone Heart is the soulless revanent that she is depicted as on this forum. She is vengeful for sure and damaged, just as Beric was soul weary and tired, but everything Beric says in Arya chapters indicates a person who is soulfully worried about the humanity he has lost and that the fire is burning away his identity. I thin before the end we will see there is enough of Catelyn left in Lady Stone Heart for redemption. When she orders Brienne to fight Jaime in a trial by combat, Brienne will win possibly because Jaime lets her win in an obvious way (though likely just because he is no match for her with just one hand). Brienne will charge Catelyn with breaking her vow to ask her to do no dishonorable act. Catelyn will then give the fire to Jaime. Though it is likely that Rob's will has already been passed north by other means, it is also possibly that part of her redemptive arc will include charging Brienne with the task of taking Rob's will to Jon, before giving her life to resurrect Jaime. This all of course implies that at some point Brienne will die and Jaime will pass the flame to Brienne.
 

Again, it's likely crackpot, put I like it.

WTF you calling crackpot?

[Durran Durrandon]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

WTF you calling crackpot?

LOL, there is just certain part of the story where you can't speculate much without cracking some pots. It's a fine tradition. It should be honored.

You know, the other day I was watching Jedi with my little girl and she start going off about how the Emperor is probably not dead, since we just see him fall. She went on to argue that Luke fell down a big shaft in Empire and he lived. Seriously, I couldn't have been prouder.

[Sigella]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Actually, the word “blackberr...” occurs five times in The Sworn Sword. Five times is still a lot for a short story.

In Bran II, Game 8, a man in the glass gardens at Winterfell used to give Ban a blackberry when the boy visited him, which is creepy because blackberries in literature often are associated with Lucifer, but they are also often used in literature to symbolize ignorance and/or arrogance. Check out the scene before Tyron’s trial in the Vale... The trial ended with Cat and Lysa loosing their price-pig-hostage, plus Lysa's best knight died.

Catelyn VII, Game 40

Renly dined on blackberry tarts at Bitterbridge in Catelyn II, Clash 22, Shortly before dying.

and Cersei served Tyrion blackberry tarts when she served him with Alayaya in Tyrion XII, Shortly before him almost dying in BotB and also loosing his nose. Clash 54.

The Lannisters broke their fast with blackberry honeycakes on the morning of the purple wedding in Sansa IV, Shortly before Joffy dying and they lost their price-pig-hostage.

Storm 59. Yoren had the younger recruits picking blackberries on the way north from King’s Landing in Arya III, Shortly before most of them die.Clash 9, and Hot Pie found a blackberry bush and stripped it bare after Yoren was killed. Shortly before they end up in the house by the lake.

Jaime, Brienne, and Cleos dined on blackberries on their way to from Riverun in Jaime II, Shortly before him loosing his hand.

Storm 11. In Bran VI, Clash 46, we surmise that blackberries grow in the godswood at Winterfell. Cant remember/place this right now.

In Davos II, Storm 10, we learn that Jate Blackberry likely died during the Battle of the Blackwater. His kin, Omer Blackberry helped Davos smuggle Edric Storm off Dragonstone in Davos VI, Dying on the Blackwater and loosing a price-pig-hostage was it?

Storm 63. A Liddle (my guess is the Middle Liddle) gave Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds some oatcakes with blackberries as they sojourned in his cave on their way north in Bran II, Cant remember this right now.

Storm 24. Blackberry brambles grew at Oldstones as we learned in the Epilogue to Storm. Merret Frey dies shortly after seeing them and sees that the brotherhood aren't gonna give back their price-pig-hostages.

On the way to Hayford, a squire brough Jaime a helm full of blackberries in Jaime III, Feast 27. Shortly before he finds out about Cersei and Lancel and his life-long-love for her dies.

Arianne will have to travel down deep ravines choked with blackberry brambles in Arianne II, Winds. Don't know what really happens after that yet

Nevertheless, Brienne finds the postern gate behind the blackberry bramble, and she warns Podrick to stay away from the poisonous red ivy in Brienne IV, Feast 20. Interestingly, she shoulders through the blackberry bramble and pulls on a rusted ring. After which came some meaningless fight.

And Illyrio serves Tyrion blackberry wine and blackberries in cream on the way to meet Griff and his noble lad in Tyrion II, Dance 8. Shortly before Illyrio gives up the OG-price-pig-hostage that is Tyrion.

But there are too many scenes with blackberries that have nothing to do with The Blackfyre to associate blackberries to The Blackfyre.

Sure. Maybe has nothing to do with Blackfyres - but you can't deny there IS a certain pattern here?

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

LOL, there is just certain part of the story where you can't speculate much without cracking some pots. It's a fine tradition. It should be honored.

You know, the other day I was watching Jedi with my little girl and she start going off about how the Emperor is probably not dead, since we just see him fall. She went on to argue that Luke fell down a big shaft in Empire and he lived. Seriously, I couldn't have been prouder.

Nice. My wee ones call the movie the one with the little teddy bears. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

A hint at a Blackfyre future (unwitting) for Jaime?

Quote

Riding at the front of the host with Ser Ilyn silent by his side, Jaime felt almost content. The sun was warm on his back and the wind riffled through his hair like a woman's fingers. When Little Lew Piper came galloping up with a helm full of blackberries, Jaime ate a handful and told the boy to share the rest with his fellow squires and Ser Ilyn Payne.

Jaime III, Feast 27

[Lost Melnibonean]

 

Quote

"I shall be the Kingslayer till I die."

Jaime III, Feast

Not if he takes the black.

From page 5...

You know, I really don't know whether Jaime will become unJaime, but I have no doubt that Bloodraven is setting Jaime up to back the claim of Rhaegar's son, and that Jaime will believe Jon Connington. I have no doubt that he is Cersei's valonqar, and that Brienne is the one younger and more beautiful than Cersei.

Of course, I don't think Aegon could allow Jaime to enter his service. I think Jaime will be allowed to take the black as The Ned wanted and as this foreshadows...

Quote

The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black.

Catelyn X, Game 63

Bloodraven is associated with the moon in Jon I, Dance 3. During a Jon/Ghost wolfdream, the moon calls to Ghost, "Snow." When Jon awakes, he realizes Jeor's raven has been calling to him, "Snow."