Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v100

Recommended Posts

:agree:

Even if I really think that Jaime is going to be involved in Jon's storyline as well. Didn't GRRM said recently that he was at a point in the story when all characters are going to converge towards each others ?

I (mis-?)remember some famous author talking about Martin's writing progress saying George has to wrap it all up now, nearly everyone started out in Winterfell and they all have to revert back to Winterfell.

Though this was very internet-hearsay but since then it has anchored deeply in my mind, and I expect to see everybody back in Winterfell at about two-thirds into A Dream of Spring :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing, that I wanted to write in the last thread but we kinda derailed it :lol: It's about Robert's actions at the last days of the Rebellion, Lyanna and how his actions speak against his words of loving her.

First, we know that he was wounded after the Battle of the Trident. Yet, he eventually got to King's Landing, when he was "gifted" with the Targ babies. There is when he and Ned had a fight about it, and Ned left to find Lyanna.

Even if Robert was still wounded (and he was probably getting better as it doesn't take one day to go from the Trident to KL) and knowing he likes to do his will, why didn't he go on his own? The fact he was hurt make no sense because we know that, at Stoney Sept, being wounded didn't stop him from making children. Or at least, he could have organised a search party. Because we're talking about the woman he went to war for. Apparently, his fight with Ned and his pride and vengeance was more important than the sake of Lyanna's.

And another thing that I wonder, is why didn't Robert himself interrogated Rhaegar? You have the man you think has raped your beloved in front of you, wouldn't the first thing to do is actually ask for the girl? or get him alive so he could tell you? This is odd because Robert could have simply said (after shouting insults, if he might), "rapist, where you have Lyanna?". Do you actually imagine Rhaegar not telling him? Rhaegar could have simply said "look, put down your weapon, stop this madness and you can see Lyanna well and alive because she is not a prisoner". That could have convinced Ned, or at least, making him doubt. And I'm supposed many other men in love we've met in the books would do the same. But not Robert: he simply killed him without finding out where Lyanna was. There is two chances:

1. He didn't ask anything and he simply killed Rhaegar without realising that Rhaegar could have actually tell them all where Lyanna was.

2. He kinda did, or when faced him, Rhaegar did tell him Lyanna was fine, which enraged him even more and that caused him to kill him. If #2, then Robert told Ned and he was in denial for 16 years.

Because one important thing to remember is that while many of us agree that the war had nothing to do with Lyanna, it had for Robert. That was his reason, or at least he would say that, that he rebelled Aerys because what he did to Brandon, Rickard and for what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Yet, it's funny how little Robert thought about her during the Rebellion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually have a darker reading of Robert, where in the back of his mind he might have known that Lyanna went willingly, but he couldn't take that blow to his ego, so better to slaughter Rhaegar as "justice" (and then fantasize about it every night after that) than actually learn the truth. He didn't love Lyanna...she was more an object of his sexual obsession, which is why he only saw her for her beauty (and why her safety may not have been his focus that day).



No clue about why he didn't go to the ToJ or organize any kind of rescue party. Maybe Ned said he'd handle it?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually have a darker reading of Robert, where in the back of his mind he might have known that Lyanna went willingly, but he couldn't take that blow to his ego, so better to slaughter Rhaegar as "justice" (and then fantasize about it every night after that) than actually learn the truth. He didn't love Lyanna...she was more an object of his sexual obsession, which is why he only saw her for her beauty.

No clue about why he didn't go to the ToJ or organize any kind of rescue party. Maybe Ned said he'd handle it?

I don't think that Robert had a single clue where to look for Lyanna. Ned went to put an end to the siege of Storms' End, and either knew better than to tell Robert anything, or learned only after he left KL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing, that I wanted to write in the last thread but we kinda derailed it :lol: It's about Robert's actions at the last days of the Rebellion, Lyanna and how his actions speak against his words of loving her.

First, we know that he was wounded after the Battle of the Trident. Yet, he eventually got to King's Landing, when he was "gifted" with the Targ babies. There is when he and Ned had a fight about it, and Ned left to find Lyanna.

Even if Robert was still wounded (and he was probably getting better as it doesn't take one day to go from the Trident to KL) and knowing he likes to do his will, why didn't he go on his own? The fact he was hurt make no sense because we know that, at Stoney Sept, being wounded didn't stop him from making children. Or at least, he could have organised a search party. Because we're talking about the woman he went to war for. Apparently, his fight with Ned and his pride and vengeance was more important than the sake of Lyanna's.

And another thing that I wonder, is why didn't Robert himself interrogated Rhaegar? You have the man you think has raped your beloved in front of you, wouldn't the first thing to do is actually ask for the girl? or get him alive so he could tell you? This is odd because Robert could have simply said (after shouting insults, if he might), "rapist, where you have Lyanna?". Do you actually imagine Rhaegar not telling him? Rhaegar could have simply said "look, put down your weapon, stop this madness and you can see Lyanna well and alive because she is not a prisoner". That could have convinced Ned, or at least, making him doubt. And I'm supposed many other men in love we've met in the books would do the same. But not Robert: he simply killed him without finding out where Lyanna was. There is two chances:

1. He didn't ask anything and he simply killed Rhaegar without realising that Rhaegar could have actually tell them all where Lyanna was.

2. He kinda did, or when faced him, Rhaegar did tell him Lyanna was fine, which enraged him even more and that caused him to kill him. If #2, then Robert told Ned and he was in denial for 16 years.

Because one important thing to remember is that while many of us agree that the war had nothing to do with Lyanna, it had for Robert. That was his reason, or at least he would say that, that he rebelled Aerys because what he did to Brandon, Rickard and for what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Yet, it's funny how little Robert thought about her during the Rebellion.

I don't see things this way at all.

I doubt Robert knew that Ned was going to look for or find Lyanna when Ned left KL. He went to life the siege at SE. Then he went to get Lyanna. We don't know for sure when Ned found out where Lyanna was staying--but it is unlikely that he told Robert about it or that he was going there. That is why he only take six very trusted people. So that no one else knows where or why he is going. Lyanna just would not have been a topic of discussion at that point in time. She had been missing a long time--why bring her up specifically then.

As to Robert interrogating Rhaegar in battle--I find that laughable. People don't actually have conversations when they are trying to kill each other. Having a discussion was likely not really an option--nor would Robert have any reason to think Rhaegar would possibly tell the truth (even if he would).

But I actually agree that it is unlikely that Robert actually loved Lyanna--I think he loved the idea of loving Lyanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually have a darker reading of Robert, where in the back of his mind he might have known that Lyanna went willingly, but he couldn't take that blow to his ego, so better to slaughter Rhaegar as "justice" (and then fantasize about it every night after that) than actually learn the truth. He didn't love Lyanna...she was more an object of his sexual obsession, which is why he only saw her for her beauty (and why her safety may not have been his focus that day).

No clue about why he didn't go to the ToJ or organize any kind of rescue party. Maybe Ned said he'd handle it?

I think I agree. Although I do have a little more sympathy for Robert in this case. I think that Lyanna was the first hot girl that he ever met that he was allowed to immediately bone. Most 19 year-olds confuse that with love. But by the time we meet him, he's definitly in love with her ghost, and it's sad.

And, yeah, I see him as being in deep denial. And of not assigning women much agency in these matter in general anyway. Even if Lyanna wrote him a nice long letter detailing how she's just not that into him and she's much rather be Rhaegar's mistress than his wife, thank you very much, he would have just dismissed as as her being coerced, or seduced. Robert seems to be able to seduce woman into doing crazy things for him, so why not?And even if Rhaegar tried to explain, he would just call him a liar and hit him again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and then both versions of my post vanished?!

ARG

Fine, I'll do this again.

1. He didn't ask anything and he simply killed Rhaegar without realising that Rhaegar could have actually tell them all where Lyanna was.
2. He kinda did, or when faced him, Rhaegar did tell him Lyanna was fine, which enraged him even more and that caused him to kill him. If #2, then Robert told Ned and he was in denial for 16 years.

Between those 2, I choose #1. I think by the time Robert and Rhaegar meet on the Trident, Robert is full on blood-lust, wants Rhaegar to die and has no time for negotiations. He knows that the Rebellion is going very well for him, and I honestly don't think Robert is thinking about Lyanna so much as he's thinking about how much he really wants to kill Rhaegar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing, that I wanted to write in the last thread but we kinda derailed it :lol: It's about Robert's actions at the last days of the Rebellion, Lyanna and how his actions speak against his words of loving her.

First, we know that he was wounded after the Battle of the Trident. Yet, he eventually got to King's Landing, when he was "gifted" with the Targ babies. There is when he and Ned had a fight about it, and Ned left to find Lyanna.

Even if Robert was still wounded (and he was probably getting better as it doesn't take one day to go from the Trident to KL) and knowing he likes to do his will, why didn't he go on his own? The fact he was hurt make no sense because we know that, at Stoney Sept, being wounded didn't stop him from making children. Or at least, he could have organised a search party. Because we're talking about the woman he went to war for. Apparently, his fight with Ned and his pride and vengeance was more important than the sake of Lyanna's.

And another thing that I wonder, is why didn't Robert himself interrogated Rhaegar? You have the man you think has raped your beloved in front of you, wouldn't the first thing to do is actually ask for the girl? or get him alive so he could tell you? This is odd because Robert could have simply said (after shouting insults, if he might), "rapist, where you have Lyanna?". Do you actually imagine Rhaegar not telling him? Rhaegar could have simply said "look, put down your weapon, stop this madness and you can see Lyanna well and alive because she is not a prisoner". That could have convinced Ned, or at least, making him doubt. And I'm supposed many other men in love we've met in the books would do the same. But not Robert: he simply killed him without finding out where Lyanna was. There is two chances:

1. He didn't ask anything and he simply killed Rhaegar without realising that Rhaegar could have actually tell them all where Lyanna was.

2. He kinda did, or when faced him, Rhaegar did tell him Lyanna was fine, which enraged him even more and that caused him to kill him. If #2, then Robert told Ned and he was in denial for 16 years.

Because one important thing to remember is that while many of us agree that the war had nothing to do with Lyanna, it had for Robert. That was his reason, or at least he would say that, that he rebelled Aerys because what he did to Brandon, Rickard and for what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Yet, it's funny how little Robert thought about her during the Rebellion.

He was at War for nigh on a year, after a full year of dreaming about the chance to kill Rhaegar, he may have lost himself in rage at the sight of him. I agree it is odd, but maybe Robert forgot his true cause it seemed towards the end his only interest was killing Targaryens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He was at War for nigh on a year, after a full year of dreaming about the chance to kill Rhaegar, he may have lost himself in rage at the sight of him. I agree it is odd, but maybe Robert forgot his true cause it seemed towards the end his only interest was killing Targaryens.

Robert may have romanticized the war, doing it "for the girl,"in his head but the real reason for the rebellion was Aerys calling for Robert and Ned's heads after Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard. So, Robert does know, somewhere, that the way is about putting an end to Targaryen's. By the time the Trident happens, Robert and his gang have come to far to suddenly sit down to tea and hear Rhaegar out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that Robert had a single clue where to look for Lyanna. Ned went to put an end to the siege of Storms' End, and either knew better than to tell Robert anything, or learned only after he left KL.

This is along the lines of what I think. I think somewhere along the line Ned learned something, or maybe he already knew something, that made him want to find Lyanna on the down-low ;) I believe the fact that he didn't come down on the ToJ with at least a modest military force but instead chose to do it with a very small force of all Northerner friends, etc. speaks volumes. I think he wanted secrecy for some reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is along the lines of what I think. I think somewhere along the line Ned learned something, or maybe he already knew something, that made him want to find Lyanna on the down-low ;) I believe the fact that he didn't come down on the ToJ with at least a modest military force but instead chose to do it with a very small force of all Northerner friends, etc. speaks volumes. I think he wanted secrecy for some reason.

I don't think he wanted Robert for Lyanna. Being Lord of Winterfell now I suppose that was his decision to undo that promise made before him given how Robert and he had fallen out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually have a darker reading of Robert, where in the back of his mind he might have known that Lyanna went willingly, but he couldn't take that blow to his ego, so better to slaughter Rhaegar as "justice" (and then fantasize about it every night after that) than actually learn the truth. He didn't love Lyanna...she was more an object of his sexual obsession, which is why he only saw her for her beauty (and why her safety may not have been his focus that day).

In addition, Robert is under the impression that Rhaegar has been raping Lyanna and doing gods know what else with her. Remember that this is a medieval society.....Lyanna would now be damaged goods, and no highborn man, even Robert, is going to touch her after that, even if the person doing the damaging was the crown prince. It would be far easier on Robert to take up the warhammer of justice/honor and avenge her as though she is already dead, because the possibility of rescuing her and carrying on with her as his queen is gone. In Robert's eyes, Lyanna might as well be be dead because their future together is dead.

Robert can rally around her flag and carry her torch and still look like a good guy, and his physical inaction toward her still saves face because it doesn't put him in the position of rejecting what is now a spoiled maiden...something he most likely would have done had she lived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In addition, Robert is under the impression that Rhaegar has been raping Lyanna and doing gods know what else with her. Remember that this is a medieval society.....Lyanna would now be damaged goods, and no highborn man, even Robert, is going to touch her after that, even if the person doing the damaging was the crown prince. It would be far easier on Robert to take up the warhammer of justice/honor and avenge her as though she is already dead, because the possibility of rescuing her and carrying on with her as his queen is gone. In Robert's eyes, Lyanna might as well be be dead because their future together is dead.

Robert can rally around her flag and carry her torch and still look like a good guy, and his physical inaction toward her still saves face because it doesn't put him in the position of rejecting what is now a spoiled maiden...something he most likely would have done had she lived.

:agree: God, even with all the rape apologist on the internet, I'm still glad I don't live in Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In addition, Robert is under the impression that Rhaegar has been raping Lyanna and doing gods know what else with her. Remember that this is a medieval society.....Lyanna would now be damaged goods, and no highborn man, even Robert, is going to touch her after that, even if the person doing the damaging was the crown prince. It would be far easier on Robert to take up the warhammer of justice/honor and avenge her as though she is already dead, because the possibility of rescuing her and carrying on with her as his queen is gone. In Robert's eyes, Lyanna might as well be be dead because their future together is dead.

Robert can rally around her flag and carry her torch and still look like a good guy, and his physical inaction toward her still saves face because it doesn't put him in the position of rejecting what is now a spoiled maiden...something he most likely would have done had she lived.

I still think Robert would have wed Lyanna. He wanted her...even when he talks about Rhaegar raping her, it's obvious that he hasn't lost his affection for her. He even called Cersei Lyanna on their wedding night, if I'm recalling correctly. Had Lyanna lived, Robert would have married her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think Robert would have wed Lyanna. He wanted her...even when he talks about Rhaegar raping her, it's obvious that he hasn't lost his affection for her. He even called Cersei Lyanna on their wedding night, if I'm recalling correctly. Had Lyanna lived, Robert would have married her.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree. I think after Lyanna dies, Robert builds a sort of shrine to her in his mind. She remains this figure of beauty and grace and purity and something terrible happened to her, but Robert tells himself he would have loved her nonetheless; I think he also tries to convince himself that they would have been happy together, though I really doubt it. His affection for Lyanna is an affection for someone he's "made up." He never really knew Lyanna and I think PrettyPig makes a very good, if horrific, point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And another thing that I wonder, is why didn't Robert himself interrogated Rhaegar? You have the man you think has raped your beloved in front of you, wouldn't the first thing to do is actually ask for the girl? or get him alive so he could tell you? This is odd because Robert could have simply said (after shouting insults, if he might), "rapist, where you have Lyanna?". Do you actually imagine Rhaegar not telling him? Rhaegar could have simply said "look, put down your weapon, stop this madness and you can see Lyanna well and alive because she is not a prisoner". That could have convinced Ned, or at least, making him doubt.

I think that Rhaegar was very convinced he was going to win the Battle of the Trident. He's making plans for what he's going to do after putting down the rebellion, already. He's got his head tied up with prophecies, and may have convinced himself that the rebellion couldn't possibly succeed because of what he believed those prophecies told of the future. On the other hand, Robert was a doer not a talker, who it's easy to see as a bit of a berserker in battle, and had cast Westeros into turmoil and war for a reason he wouldn't be particularly interested in seeing undermined. I just don't see Robert stopping to chat. "That would have convinced Ned"? Very possibly, but Ned and Robert were... uh... ice and fire.

Things got a bit lost in the silliness at the end of 99, but I did post a response to yours there on the subject of why Robert didn't go looking for Lyanna which I believe provides a pretty solid theory as to what went down leading up to the ToJ showdown.

Happy 100, everyone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think Robert would have wed Lyanna. He wanted her...even when he talks about Rhaegar raping her, it's obvious that he hasn't lost his affection for her. He even called Cersei Lyanna on their wedding night, if I'm recalling correctly. Had Lyanna lived, Robert would have married her.

He still has the lovely vision of an unspoilt Lyanna in his mind - the image he has chosen to preserve. The real thing would have been very different.

Had Ly lived after being rescued, she would have probably been sent to the Silent Sisters. If she was lucky she would have been married off to some second son of some lesser northern house, or lived out her life as the maid of WF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He still has the lovely vision of an unspoilt Lyanna in his mind - the image he has chosen to preserve. The real thing would have been very different.

Had Ly lived after being rescued, she would have probably been sent to the Silent Sisters. If she was lucky she would have been married off to some second son of some lesser northern house, or lived out her life as the maid of WF.

:agree: The idea that someone like Robert would have married a woman who had been raped by Rhaegar for a year is preposterous. Of course, finding out the truth would have made it even less likely he would have wanted to marry her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He still has the lovely vision of an unspoilt Lyanna in his mind - the image he has chosen to preserve. The real thing would have been very different.

Had Ly lived after being rescued, she would have probably been sent to the Silent Sisters. If she was lucky she would have been married off to some second son of some lesser northern house, or lived out her life as the maid of WF.

Even Robert's image of Lya in the crypts is rather virginal and pure:

She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean.

It's this very picturesque and idyllic view of Lya.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:agree: The idea that someone like Robert would have married a woman who had been raped by Rhaegar for a year is preposterous. Of course, finding out the truth would have made it even less likely he would have wanted to marry her.

Especially if he found out that it was not rape, but consensual sex to her Prince Husband. Lyanna did not want Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×