R+L=J v.101

[sj4iy]

It might. But it might not.

(You're right - for some reason lately every time I type "Gerold," the next word that comes out is "Dayne." Definitely meant Hightower, there - thanks!)

The problem is that we don't honestly know whether those three members of the Kingsguard ever had a real opportunity to defend their king. It is entirely possible that they did not, and that it was neither their choice nor their fault. Would Ned think less of them under those circumstances? If so, why?

We know for a fact that Ned would. Look at how he treats Jaime, even though Jaime's actions saved thousands. He holds him in contempt for breaking his vow and killing his king. Now look at the way he thinks of Arthur Dayne. He holds him up as a shining example of what the KG should be. There's no way Ned would have thought this had Dayne willingly left Viserys without a KG had Viserys been king.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

So just one vow, then?

Kingsguards: They are sworn to protect the lives of the king and royal family, (The Hedge Knight) Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. (ACoK 55 Catelyn VII), Protect the King (AFfC 27 Jaime III, AFfC 32 Cersei VII) Protect the queen (ADwD 55 The Queensguard) Protect the young king and royal family (ADwD Epilogue)

Knights: Protect the weak. (ACoK 52 Sansa IV) Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. (ACoK 55 Catelyn VII), Knights defend the weak and protect the innocent (ADwD 27 Tyrion VII) Every knight swears to protect th weak and innocent (The Hedge Knight)

Kingsguards who are knights (that used to be the default) have all of the above.

reported

[stateofdissipation]

To me, that SSM means nothing. They didn't say "We're obeying orders"...they say "We swore an OATH". The only oath they swear is to the king, and no one else. They would never swear an oath to Rhaegar, because he wasn't the king. They may have initially obeyed Rhaegar's orders to stay there, but once they found out their new king, Viserys, was alone, someone should have gone to him. It wasn't a coincidence that they mentioned that Darry was not of the KG.

To me, that SSM means nothing.

It was actually an interview.. by Shaw from 2003-- it is cited in SSM but I provided the source.

it is the same thing from aDwD... 8 years later

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and to keep silent when it was not, serve at his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking; it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of a greater or lesser degree,and occasionally their lovers, mistresses and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard never far from their sides.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858

The only oath they swear is to the king, and no one else.

That would have been Aerys... who was slain by Ser Jamie with a golden sword... while these three were "far away."

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607

They would never swear an oath to Rhaegar, because he wasn't the king.

I am assuming that you have determined that the vow Hightower explained was the reason for the fight.

They may have initially obeyed Rhaegar's orders to stay there,

The kingsguard at the tower of joy were not protecting Aerys, Rhaegar, or Aegon. Asserting that they were there to guard a king ignores the king and the next two in line to be king.

but once they found out their new king, Viserys, was alone, someone should have gone to him.

agreed... and if I did not have to invent them getting that news, I could use that fact to prove they were guarding a king at the tower. I can't prove something with my own invention...

It wasn't a coincidence that they mentioned that Darry was not of the KG.

No

It is also not coincidence that Ser Oswell Named the knight guarding Viserys and commented on that knight's character-

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.--aGoT page 410

When the Kingsguard meets in the Round Room, the Lord Commander formally asks, "Sers, who guards the king?" They reply with what other knights have been asked to see to his protection. "Will they keep him safe?" asks the Lord Commander after, and when they respond in the affirmative he replies, "Be seated, then" (III: 754)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

[Ygrain]

The problem is that we don't honestly know whether those three members of the Kingsguard ever had a real opportunity to defend their king. It is entirely possible that they did not, and that it was neither their choice nor their fault. Would Ned think less of them under those circumstances? If so, why?

Because if Viserys was king, they were not doing their duty. He was without Kingsguard and they knew. Even if they were on the PTWP bandwagon and thought that protecting the saviour of the world was a higher call, they were still doing so at the cost of breaking their KG vow to protect the king. If they put any other duty above their first one to protect the king while no other KG was left to carry it out, they were not shining examples of Kingsguard.

[RumHam]

We know for a fact that Ned would. Look at how he treats Jaime, even though Jaime's actions saved thousands. He holds him in contempt for breaking his vow and killing his king. Now look at the way he thinks of Arthur Dayne. He holds him up as a shining example of what the KG should be. There's no way Ned would have thought this had Dayne willingly left Viserys without a KG had Viserys been king.

Ned doesn't know about the wildfire plot. From his perspective Jaime should have taken Aerys prisoner or died defending him from the rebel forces. He should not have killed the guy he was sworn to protect. That's where the contempt comes from.

Dayne died following his orders, for a lost cause. I really doubt Ned would hold it against him that he did not seek out Viserys when he heard the news. "He was the finest knight who ever lived and would have killed me but for Howland Reed. But he loses points because he did not abandon my pregnant sister to try to protect the heir of house I've just fought for months to depose."

[stateofdissipation]

We know for a fact that Ned would. Look at how he treats Jaime, even though Jaime's actions saved thousands. He holds him in contempt for breaking his vow and killing his king. Now look at the way he thinks of Arthur Dayne. He holds him up as a shining example of what the KG should be. There's no way Ned would have thought this had Dayne willingly left Viserys without a KG had Viserys been king.

Now look at the way he thinks of Arthur Dayne.

Brandon fell to him(Rhaegar), and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Arthur Dayne, the Sword of morning --aGoT page 608

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

Though it is not from Ned it does include Dayne

Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they had heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers, They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's kingsguard, and how their young lord had slain him in single combat. .--aGoT page 62

He holds him up as a shining example of what the KG should be.

Aside from the fact that did not happen---

There's no way Ned would have thought this had Dayne willingly left Viserys without a KG had Viserys been king.

You are aware that they died right..

[sj4iy]

Ned doesn't know about the wildfire plot. From his perspective Jaime should have taken Aerys prisoner or died defending him from the rebel forces. He should not have killed the guy he was sworn to protect. That's where the contempt comes from.

Dayne died following his orders, for a lost cause. I really doubt Ned would hold it against him that he did not seek out Viserys when he heard the news. "He was the finest knight who ever lived and would have killed me but for Howland Reed. But he loses points because he did not abandon my pregnant sister to try to protect the heir of house I've just fought for months to depose."

Ned doesn't need to know about the Wildfire plot. He knew that Aerys was a madman who killed his father and brother and wanted to kill him. If that fact alone didn't soften his heart towards Jaime, the details of what Aerys was planning wouldn't have, either. He thinks that Jaime should have taken the black...and he should have, because no matter what he did, saving thousands of lives, killing a madman...he broke his vow. He thinks that Dayne is an upstanding paragon of honor...something he would not have thought had Dayne steadfastly refused to leave the ToJ to go to his king, Viserys.

[Ygrain]

Dayne died following his orders, for a lost cause. I really doubt Ned would hold it against him that he did not seek out Viserys when he heard the news. "He was the finest knight who ever lived and would have killed me but for Howland Reed. But he loses points because he did not abandon my pregnant sister to try to protect the heir of house I've just fought for months to depose."

Um, if Dayne was there all alone, then perhaps. There were two more guys, though, sworn to the same goal, and the vow doesn't go void because the cause is lost or far away or anything. Honour doesn't care for such trivialities. They were bound to go to their king or die trying.

[J. Stargaryen]

So just one vow, then?

Twice in the series Ser Gerold Hightower says that the KG (we, you) "swore a vow." So there is a connection between the language and the subject.

The first time we're left wondering exactly what he meant by "We swore a vow" since it's not stated in the text. But the second time he says something like this, he follows it up with "to guard the king." Wouldn't you know it, that same followup would fit perfectly in the ToJ dialogue. Do you think that is more likely to be a coincidence or a clue?

[stateofdissipation]

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked if the kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered,"but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

Once.... kingsguard under king Aerys could hardly be called a marvel or a shining lesson

Jamie turned to Meryn Trant. "Ser you have been remiss in teaching our new brothers their duties."

"What duties," said Meryn Trant defensively.

"Keeping the king alive. How many monarchs have you lost since I left the city? Two, is it!" aSoS BG page 274

.

.killed one king..allowed the next to be killed. that is closer to current than the great kingsguard of old.

Once... at a round tower in the red mountains of Dorne only works if there was a king present...

You can use a king at the tower of joy to show that the kingsguard there were a marvel and a shining lesson.... you can't use them being a shining lesson or a marvel to prove there was a king at the tower.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.--aGoT

It is interesting that Gerold did not say "we have a duty" and/or GRRM did not write "the first vow of the kingsguard"

[WhiteOwl18]

Um, if Dayne was there all alone, then perhaps. There were two more guys, though, sworn to the same goal, and the vow doesn't go void because the cause is lost or far away or anything. Honour doesn't care for such trivialities. They were bound to go to their king or die trying.

The fact that Hightower, the guy who is 100% by the book, is there is really the biggest clue.

[stateofdissipation]

The fact that Hightower, the guy who is 100% by the book, is there is really the biggest clue.

Oft quoted seldom cited...

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK 721

The fact that one opts to disregard sarcasm and irony is a pretty big clue....

The fact that the 100% by the book... is not in the book is the biggest clue

In my version of aGoT page 802 is completely blank.....

Hightower is 100% by the book--aGoT page 802 (number 2 pencil)

[UtherSnow]

For some reason, I felt I had to have yet one more look at Ned's 'fever dream'. It's Ned's own personal circumstances I thought I needed to be clear on. He's clearly in some pain from a severe injury hence requiring time to heal, plus he's taken unspecified amounts of milk of poppy. Perhaps it's his own injury that prompted Ned to think back. Only Ned would know, and we can't ask him, for obvious reasons.

What do we know of the side-effects of milk of poppy? It can induce unconsciousness. That could well mean that Ned's dream is distorted, even though it carries a lot of facts. This isn't the same as hallucinating. The chances are that Ned has muddled several pieces of information together, condensing them to arrive at something else.

As we find out, Ned's been 'out-to-lunch' for a few days, due to milk of poppy. He's likely to have been in at 'the deep end' for at least half of that time. His come-down being the 2nd part, which is when he's had this dream.

Can you see what I'm driving at?

Any lawyer today would rip Ned's 'testimony' apart, because it's drug-related. Also, any expert on drugs would be able to apply some logic to work out what Ned was trying to recall, or make sure he remembered. Which way would any jury look at this testimony? It depends on who has made the more understandable case. It wouldn't be on whatever Ned's given as the truth, as he recalls it.

Before you accept what Ned's said as gospel, look at his circumstances, try to figure out what, precisely, he's trying to be very clear on. Which pieces fit together? Which are out of place?

The whereabouts of each of Aerys' Kingsguard seems to be part of what Ned's keeping track of.

Nobody disobeys the King. LC Hightower follows orders when he's told to go get Rhaegar, and bring him back.

Rhaegar orders Hightower to remain at the tower of joy. Isn't it the LC's place to be at the King's side?

Who escorted Rhaegar back? It isn't clear. However, I doubt he'd be alone. Possibly he's taken what was there other than Hightower, Whent and Dayne.

It gets you wondering why Jaime was left alone to guard Aerys. He is the son of one of the leaders amongst The Rebellion, isn't he?

Would anyone take the chance of leaving him alone? You don't know whether or not you can trust the guy. Would you take that chance?

It seems to be that Jaime's been left to do the infamous deed, on purpose. Rhaegar would not be called a kinslayer, and be forever damned in everyone's eyes.

Is this what Ned was trying to piece together, or remember from the fractured pieces he was recalling?

The tower of joy is supposed to be somewhere in the Prince's Pass. That's one of the ways into Dorne.

Starfall, other than being the seat of House Dayne, is the western defence for Dorne.

Wouldn't Aegon also be a Prince of Dorne? Ensuring his safety would keep Dorne tied to the Targaryens.

Didn't Elia have some health problems? Was Rhaegar preparing for the inevitable? Perhaps even Elia accepted this, and her own fate, which would give credence to Aegon being protected. That would also mean that Rhaenys would be afforded the same level of safety too.

What if the plan was to get both royal children to safety, by replacing them one at a time? A baby is a baby is like any other, and so Aegon would be covered fine. Rhaenys would have to have someone closely resembling her for this to be concealed. Who knows if this was in progress when Jaime went into action, and Pycelle opened the gates for Tywin?

Gregor Clegane obviously had bloodlust, and running wild. Would he have been likely to have checked? I don't think so because his orders would've been to do what he did.

Again, there's something that comes back to Jaime. Wasn't he expected to wed Elia at one time? Could there be a deliberate purpose to making sure he stayed with Aerys? Tywin must've known about the potential marriage, and remembered. Jaime was not present when Gregor went wild, slaying Elia and the children, IIRC.

I can't recall what Jaime's reaction was to the sight of Elia and her children.

No doubt someone will tear this to pieces. But, I thought I'd air these views just to make sure nothing's been overlooked, or some clue missed. There just seemed to be a few things not clearly explained.

I've kept away from mentioning Jon (as the baby), on purpose. It's wrong to name an unidentified child until things are confirmed. What's name day all about if not to announce a formal name at an appropriate time? It was the custom to wait, due to infant mortality.

We know, at some point, Ned had to use a name, and Jon would be instantly seen as being after Ned's mentor, Jon Arryn.

Out of the 7 who formed Aerys' KG, only Jaime and Barristan are survivors. The others with Barristan were killed in battle, in a heroic manner alongside Rhaegar, even thought it's a defeat. Does that mean those at the tower were bound by a vow to keep a secret? It's one they carried to the cairns. Theirs is a kind of defiant last stand that's only going to end in one outcome. They won't make it easy for Ned and his cohorts, and didn't.

You can see there's a good reason for Ned to take Dayne's sword to its ancestral home. We know how he sees Ser Arthur Dayne. Whent and Hightower don't get a mention at all.

[sj4iy]

<snip>

This is literature, not a murder case. You could rip apart any dream, prophecy or vision if you had to go by trial standards. These types of information would be considered be unreliable in the real world...but in the fictional world of the book, they are very reliable and very often represent the truth, as has been proven over and over and over again.

[stateofdissipation]

For some reason, I felt I had to have yet one more look at Ned's 'fever dream'. It's Ned's own personal circumstances I thought I needed to be clear on. He's clearly in some pain from a severe injury hence requiring time to heal, plus he's taken unspecified amounts of milk of poppy. Perhaps it's his own injury that prompted Ned to think back. Only Ned would know, and we can't ask him, for obvious reasons.

What do we know of the side-effects of milk of poppy? It can induce unconsciousness. That could well mean that Ned's dream is distorted, even though it carries a lot of facts. This isn't the same as hallucinating. The chances are that Ned has muddled several pieces of information together, condensing them to arrive at something else.

As we find out, Ned's been 'out-to-lunch' for a few days, due to milk of poppy. He's likely to have been in at 'the deep end' for at least half of that time. His come-down being the 2nd part, which is when he's had this dream.

Can you see what I'm driving at?

Any lawyer today would rip Ned's 'testimony' apart, because it's drug-related. Also, any expert on drugs would be able to apply some logic to work out what Ned was trying to recall, or make sure he remembered. Which way would any jury look at this testimony? It depends on who has made the more understandable case. It wouldn't be on whatever Ned's given as the truth, as he recalls it.

Before you accept what Ned's said as gospel, look at his circumstances, try to figure out what, precisely, he's trying to be very clear on. Which pieces fit together? Which are out of place?

The whereabouts of each of Aerys' Kingsguard seems to be part of what Ned's keeping track of.

Nobody disobeys the King. LC Hightower follows orders when he's told to go get Rhaegar, and bring him back.

Rhaegar orders Hightower to remain at the tower of joy. Isn't it the LC's place to be at the King's side?

Who escorted Rhaegar back? It isn't clear. However, I doubt he'd be alone. Possibly he's taken what was there other than Hightower, Whent and Dayne.

It gets you wondering why Jaime was left alone to guard Aerys. He is the son of one of the leaders amongst The Rebellion, isn't he?

Would anyone take the chance of leaving him alone? You don't know whether or not you can trust the guy. Would you take that chance?

It seems to be that Jaime's been left to do the infamous deed, on purpose. Rhaegar would not be called a kinslayer, and be forever damned in everyone's eyes.

Is this what Ned was trying to piece together, or remember from the fractured pieces he was recalling?

The tower of joy is supposed to be somewhere in the Prince's Pass. That's one of the ways into Dorne.

Starfall, other than being the seat of House Dayne, is the western defence for Dorne.

Wouldn't Aegon also be a Prince of Dorne? Ensuring his safety would keep Dorne tied to the Targaryens.

Didn't Elia have some health problems? Was Rhaegar preparing for the inevitable? Perhaps even Elia accepted this, and her own fate, which would give credence to Aegon being protected. That would also mean that Rhaenys would be afforded the same level of safety too.

What if the plan was to get both royal children to safety, by replacing them one at a time? A baby is a baby is like any other, and so Aegon would be covered fine. Rhaenys would have to have someone closely resembling her for this to be concealed. Who knows if this was in progress when Jaime went into action, and Pycelle opened the gates for Tywin?

Gregor Clegane obviously had bloodlust, and running wild. Would he have been likely to have checked? I don't think so because his orders would've been to do what he did.

Again, there's something that comes back to Jaime. Wasn't he expected to wed Elia at one time? Could there be a deliberate purpose to making sure he stayed with Aerys? Tywin must've known about the potential marriage, and remembered. Jaime was not present when Gregor went wild, slaying Elia and the children, IIRC.

I can't recall what Jaime's reaction was to the sight of Elia and her children.

No doubt someone will tear this to pieces. But, I thought I'd air these views just to make sure nothing's been overlooked, or some clue missed. There just seemed to be a few things not clearly explained.

I've kept away from mentioning Jon (as the baby), on purpose. It's wrong to name an unidentified child until things are confirmed. What's name day all about if not to announce a formal name at an appropriate time? It was the custom to wait, due to infant mortality.

We know, at some point, Ned had to use a name, and Jon would be instantly seen as being after Ned's mentor, Jon Arryn.

It's Ned's own personal circumstances I thought I needed to be clear on. He's clearly in some pain from a severe injury hence requiring time to heal, plus he's taken unspecified amounts of milk of poppy.

"How...how long?" The sheets were tangled, his leg splinted and plastered. A dull throb of pain shot up his side.

"Six days and seven nights." The voice was Varyon Poole's. ---aGoT page 410

"A small cup," Ned said. "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy."---aGoT page 412.

I felt I had to have yet one more look at Ned's 'fever dream'.

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.--GRRM

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

It gets you wondering why Jaime was left alone to guard Aerys. He is the son of one of the leaders amongst The Rebellion, isn't he?

The day had been windy when he said farwell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jamie's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch, I am a knight of the kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," SerJon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak you promised to obey."---aFfC page 133

[Black Crow]

The fact that Hightower, the guy who is 100% by the book, is there is really the biggest clue.

But why is he there?

His King as he tells us is Aerys.

His King is dead because he was in Dorne when he should have been protecting him.

[stateofdissipation]

But why is he there?

His King as he tells us is Aerys.

His King is dead because he was in Dorne when he should have been protecting him.

Absolutely---

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

It is very thoughtful of him to include what he would have done. Though he did not actually do it--- Robert sat the Iron Throne and his false brother protected him.

[mambru]

Um, if Dayne was there all alone, then perhaps. There were two more guys, though, sworn to the same goal, and the vow doesn't go void because the cause is lost or far away or anything. Honour doesn't care for such trivialities. They were bound to go to their king or die trying.

OR they could be obeying orders. Obeying IS a part of their vow. And as GRRM himself said, the KG is supposed to protect the king, BUT if Rhaegar ordered them to do something else, they HAVE to do it (even though Aerys is alive at the time the order is given, and may need them at any moment). Which seems to come under the part of their vow which says "obey."

Dayne and Whent were assigned by the King himself to be Rhaegar's bodyguards. That means they have to protect and OBEY Rhaegar by order of the king, to do whatever he orders unless the King specifically countermands it. As for Hightower, one may suppose that Rhaegar convinced him that Aerys' command put him under Rhaegar's orders also. In any case, we have GRRM's assurance that all three KG stayed at the ToJ because Rhaegar ordered them to. And since Rhaegar gave those orders while King Aerys was still alive, those orders have NOTHING to do with protecting a King.

You've got no evidence that Rhaegar's orders are invalidated by the death of the giver - GRRM's statement says the opposite, in fact...he says that the KG fought Ned at the Tower (long after Rhaegar's death) because Rhaegar gave them an order.

Yes, the KG are keeping a vow - but Obey is a part of that vow, as much as Protect is. Unless you can point out to me someplace in the books where it says that the KG are free to abandon someone they've been ordered to guard because the King happens to be without a KG (and no one has till now), you have no way of knowing for sure whether they are Protecting a King, or simply Obeying Rhaegar's last orders to guard a pregnant wife/mistress/prisoner from all comers.

[sj4iy]

But why is he there?

He's there because Aerys sent him there. But no one knows exactly why he stayed there.

His King as he tells us is Aerys.

No, his former King was Aerys. Once Aerys died, he was no longer king and Hightower served the next in line. The Kingsguard guards 'the king', not a certain king. Had Aerys died and Rhaegar ascended the throne without incident, Hightower would have served Rhaegar as faithfully as he served his father, and so on and so forth.

His King is dead because he was in Dorne when he should have been protecting him.

His former king is dead for a whole hosts of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that he was a madman who pissed off much of the country by killing a prominent lord and his son. Gerold Hightower wouldn't have saved his king had he been there...he simply would have died defending him.

[mambru]

So just one vow, then?

"When you donned that cloak, you promised to OBEY..."