Bakker XXIX: Erratics and Impossible Erections

[sologdin]

Hitler escaped assassination mostly by luck. White Luck, if you will.

there's an x-file on white luck, as it happens.

[Larry of the Lawn]

The guy that says "cerulean blue" when he's in the cop car and theres a big wreck?

[Happy Ent]

Meh, industrialization =/= guns necessarily. I was thinking more of mass production to better equip his armies, improved communications for propaganda and faster transportation for supply lines, stuff like that.

This is indeed mentioned in the beginning of Judging Eye. It’s about grain production and storage, transportation, etc. Kellhus has reprogrammed society, making it utilitarian. Huge administrative reforms and huge social upheavals (the Yatwerians complain about that, because their voter base slowly erodes.) I think Esmi says somewhere “think of the changes we wrought” or something like that.

Kellhus clearly has started modernity, exactly like it would make sense.

[Callan S.]

Hitler escaped assassination mostly by luck. White Luck, if you will.

Now someone has to recaption that hitler clip from youtube that everyone recaptions for lulz, this time with a PON theme.

Possibly with hitler finding out how long it'll be before the next book. *slooowly, with shaking hand, takes glasses off...*

[sologdin]

The guy that says "cerulean blue" when he's in the cop car and theres a big wreck?

that episode is less luck and more dude is supernaturally persuasive (he convinces another cop to self-immolate). was thinking of a cute little season 7 bit, 'the goldberg variation,' wherein dude is a walking goldberg machine.

[Diziet]

Kellhus clearly has started modernity, exactly like it would make sense.

Didn't Kellhus claim that he changed scripture so that sorcerers are no longer damned? If he wanted to modernize Earwa why didn't he change the "metaphysical inferiority" thing? It's one thing for him to establish a school for women, but if the Gods supposedly decree that women are less than men and Kellhus can change that why didn't he?

[Rhom]

Didn't Kellhus claim that he changed scripture so that sorcerers are no longer damned? If he wanted to modernize Earwa why didn't he change the "metaphysical inferiority" thing? It's one thing for him to establish a school for women, but if the Gods supposedly decree that women are less than men and Kellhus can change that why didn't he?

He did scratch out the part about the whores making a pit of their womb and put both Esme and Serwa in very prominent positions. I would say that much of their place has changed compared to where the story began.

[Diziet]

He put Esmenet and Serwa in high places? So? Istriya was already in a high place at the start of the series. Since when do the Emperor's wife and daughter represent regular women in a world like this?

I wasn't aware that he changed anything regarding prostitutes, but . . . that's the thing that he went to? Again, only to say "marrying a whore was cool" and sorcerers are not damned but only because "I am a sorcerer and that's cool".

What scripture did he change that wasn't directly for his benefit?

[Rhom]

He put Esmenet and Serwa in high places? So? Istriya was already in a high place at the start of the series. Since when do the Emperor's wife and daughter represent regular women in a world like this?

I wasn't aware that he changed anything regarding prostitutes, but . . . that's the thing that he went to? Again, only to say "marrying a whore was cool" and sorcerers are not damned but only because "I am a sorcerer and that's cool".

What scripture did he change that wasn't directly for his benefit?

What has Kellhus ever done that isn't directly for his benefit? Isn't that the crux of Cnaiur's big revelation?

[Diziet]

Yeah, he's not really bringing modernity "exactly like it would make sense." He's doing what suits him. There is modernity that he could bring but won't because it doesn't benefit him.

[Diziet]

I wonder if the Inchoroi scene in WP would have been better if Bakker had shown us the Werigda clan earlier and not only invented them for that one scene. Have Aengelas and Co run around the northeast and Akksersia's remains for some world/culture building, perhaps even explain how Aengelas knew what a dragon sounds like, and what a 'xurjranc' is. Doubtless, that scene was about the Inchoroi more than the Werigda, but making these characters more relevant is better than inventing them only so they can be killed in a few pages.

The stuff on the inchoroi held to the end of twp is the sort of shit on the audiences head stuff I expect from the next book. I remember stopping reading ttt the first time for a month or two because the appendix was so much more interesting and readable.

I also wonder if it would have been better for Bakker to use footnotes in the main text (as in Jonathan Strange & Mister Norrell) instead of a glossary that consists of mostly redundant material already covered in the first and second trilogies. For example: "Algari (4041-4111)—A body-slave to Prince Nersei Proyas." or "Ankirioth—A province of south central Conriya." or "Anphairas, Ikurei—See Ikurei Anphairas I." Well, thanks but we already knew all that. The 10-15% of glossary info that is actually new and necessary could have been covered in footnotes.

I would like to see a proper world book though.

[Curethan]

He put Esmenet and Serwa in high places? So? Istriya was already in a high place at the start of the series. Since when do the Emperor's wife and daughter represent regular women in a world like this?

I wasn't aware that he changed anything regarding prostitutes, but . . . that's the thing that he went to? Again, only to say "marrying a whore was cool" and sorcerers are not damned but only because "I am a sorcerer and that's cool".

What scripture did he change that wasn't directly for his benefit?

I wonder, which individual do you credit for making women suddenly 'equal' in modern society?

I disagree that Kellhus is in the process of instituting modernization. The dunyain surely represent modernization - but extending freedom to the masses is not his mission.

Altering scripture as it relates to sorcery and prostitution creates opportunities for women like Esmenet and Serwa to wield power directly, as well as serving Kellhus' objectives in forging the three seas into a more efficient army.

Esmenet is the political superior to the Shriah, Serwe is leader of a faction more powerful than the Scarlet spires. Istriya was your classic 'behind the scenes' manipulative woman in power rather than the direct authority and respect that is demanded by Esme and Serwa - a rather large difference, imo.

These changes don't benefit Kellhus directly, they benefit the Great Ordeal.

For us, industrialization and significant periods of stability have afforded the opportunity for women to further themselves - and there are still feminists engaged in the task, because whether you choose to admit it or not, women still have less opportunities and benefits.

If you say that Kelhus is bringing modernization, well, Earwa is still an agrarian society dependent on slave labour. Not even properly in the first stage.

It's up to individuals to grasp the opportunities presented by the broad changes Kellhus has made, but that is not going to happen whilst the government itself is so completely focused on wartime objectives.

The constant state of expansion, civil disorder and imperial aggression denies the stability required for cultural development towards modernity. As if equality, democracy, secularism and suffrage is going to help against the consult and the no-god anyway.

tl,dr; My point above was that I expected more technological development - social rigidity, steam engines and mass production would serve humanity vs their genocidal opponents much better than suddenly and forcefully abolishing slavery, female equality and suffrage.

[Callan S.]

Didn't Kellhus claim that he changed scripture so that sorcerers are no longer damned? If he wanted to modernize Earwa why didn't he change the "metaphysical inferiority" thing? It's one thing for him to establish a school for women, but if the Gods supposedly decree that women are less than men and Kellhus can change that why didn't he?

Why would modernisation == emancipation of women?

Just emancipate them enough to get them working in the factories - that's all you want. When you're a ruthless amoral optimiser.

[Diziet]

I wonder, which individual do you credit for making women suddenly 'equal' in modern society?

better than suddenly and forcefully abolishing slavery, female equality and suffrage.

?????

Who said anything about 'suddenly' making anyone equal? You're all talking about actual equality in everyday life, the kind of equality that applies to our world. I was talking about equality in the eye of the God. If he really cared about the former the first thing he needed to do was to fix the latter, which is to say women are not 'metaphysically inferior' (or however he would phrase it), the same way he claimed that sorcerers are no longer damned.

These changes don't benefit Kellhus directly, they benefit the Great Ordeal.

Not a big difference. The Great Ordeal is his big project which he spent the last twenty years organizing.

[Curethan]

Sorry, I thought you were talking modernity in a secular sense.

I don't think Kellhus can just alter scripture and it will change Earwan metaphysics.

We don't know if sorcerers are actually damned for bearing the mark (it's distinct from damnation according to Mimara's PoV) and I doubt changing scripture affects whether it's damning or not anyway.

Not like he cares about his Zaudunyaini committing damnable acts (like Ironsoul). The promise of redemption at his word is pretty obviously BS.

Revoking scriptural prohibition of sorcery is important to unite the Ordeal and turn up as many of the few as possible for training. I doubt that it has anything at all to do with Kellhus' personal concerns about damnation.

[Bolivar]

I know it's another thread but this was something I studied a lot in undergrad and just want to clarify that social justice does not inevitably develop on a historical timeline. Gender equality is no more a symptom of "modernity" (a heavily-critiqued concept) than over-incarceration is.

In any case, it's pretty clear at least some of Kellhus' reforms, as they apply to damnation at least, are BS, which Mimara has the potential to reveal with her Judging Eye.

[Diziet]

it's pretty clear at least some of Kellhus' reforms, as they apply to damnation at least, are BS

I don't think it's clear when it comes to sorcerers, all Mimara saw is that Achamian is damned (according to the JE). Of course, Achamian was quick to conclude that he's damned only because he's a sorcerer--but Achamian is not exactly a healer type, he's not innocent, even if you take out the sorcery.

It could be that sorcerers are not damned anymore, just as Kellhus claims, it could be that they weren't damned to begin with, and it could be that Kellhus is wrong or lying. I don't think it's clear.

[Bolivar]

Oh yeah, I agree Akka has enough sins on his own that the Judging Eye's perception of him might be a red herring, just right now I'm heavily leaning towards her being one of the few people who could legitimately undo Kellhus (which might have catastrophic consequences).

[Callan S.]

I don't think it's clear when it comes to sorcerers, all Mimara saw is that Achamian is damned (according to the JE). Of course, Achamian was quick to conclude that he's damned only because he's a sorcerer--but Achamian is not exactly a healer type, he's not innocent, even if you take out the sorcery.

Gunna be awesome when you find out what the damnation machine is (if my guess is right)

[Kalbear]

Is it a big dick? Cause it seems like it's a big dick.