Are those interested in fashion shallow?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

baxus,

The difference, of course, being that you can use a computer and/or smartphone daily until you replace them.

Sure, but my iPhone 3 was perfectly funtional for years. I'm talking about the people lining up now for the "iWatch". Are they any less shallow (as it's being defined in the "coture" fashion culture) than fashionistas?

WS,

Does buying art make people "shallow". As Sologdin pointed out that's what high fashion is, a form of art. Enjoying art doesn't make someone shallow.

[baxus]

baxus,

Sure, but my iPhone 3 was perfectly funtional for years. I'm talking about the people lining up now for the "iWatch". Are they any less shallow (as it's being defined in the "coture" fashion culture) than fashionistas?

I hear you, and there definitely are people who are like that.

On the other hand, there are people who use those computers and/or smartphones as tools.

For example, last year I bought a Macbook Pro which is a rather expensive computer and buying one can be considered shallow by people who don't know why I did it.

The thing is, I'm a software developer and I make iOS and OS X apps and a Mac was a requirement if I didn't want to hassle with Hackintosh and stuff like that and I have both covered the cost of a new Macbook and made money on top of it by freelancing, not to mention improving my skillset.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are buying a latest gadget just to show you can have it and/or to show it off then you are shallow.

Otherwise, you're not.

[Fragile Bird]

Hey, wait a second, when I buy a sweater that's in the new fall colour or a jacket with quilting on it (Note to y'all - quilting on anything is the latest rage), I'm going to wear it for a couple of years as well, because it will be fine to wear those articles of clothing for several years. No one will sneer at me for wearing that burgundy sweater for three or four years.

But if I buy that bright orange sweater (orange was so in for a while) it will date me. :)

And I had to sign a 3-year contract to get my iPhone for a cheaper cost, so that iPhone 4 is not being updated until the contract runs out.

[baxus]

Hey, wait a second, when I buy a sweater that's in the new fall colour or a jacket with quilting on it (Note to y'all - quilting on anything is the latest rage), I'm going to wear it for a couple of years as well, because it will be fine to wear those articles of clothing for several years. No one will sneer at me for wearing that burgundy sweater for three or four years.

But if I buy that bright orange sweater (orange was so in for a while) it will date me. :)

And I had to sign a 3-year contract to get my iPhone for a cheaper cost, so that iPhone 4 is not being updated until the contract runs out.

I believe that Weeping Sore meant more along the lines of high couture than everyday clothing such as sweaters ;)

And If you got iPhone 4 when it came out then your 3 year contract should've run out already since iPhone 4 came out in 2010. ;)

[Ormond]

A comment was made in another thread to the effect that they considered people interested in fashion as being somewhat shallow. It got me to thinking whether this was a common perception.

And how deep does this perception run?

Does it apply to clothes? Cosmetics? Hair care products? (dare I say it) Beards? Tattoos? Any concern with personal adornment at all?

Personally, I enjoy looking well dressed and turned out. I feel better when I know I look good. I don't carry it to extremes, of course. I'm not the proverbial "slave to fashion" where I follow Women's Wear Daily or anything, but I admit to a glance at what's being shown at Fashion Week.

Some folks don't give a damn about such things - many folks, if truth be told, could benefit from a little more care about their personal appearance, IMO.

But what say you, good people of the board? Is an interest in fashion shallow?

As the person who originally made this statement I'm going to reply even though I haven't read anything else on the thread yet.

Personally I don't equate "caring about one's personal appearance" to being "interested in fashion." I think one can be well groomed and well dressed without paying any attention at all to what is "current". I seem to recall many times in my life when what was considered currently "fashionable" in terms of hair styles or clothing did NOT seem to be "clean and neat" to me personally.

Everything is a matter of degree and I certainly get the fact that fashion design is an art and have no problems with people who are interested in it as an art form. My problem is with people who think they have to own and display all of the "latest" fashionable clothes and accessories and think it they don't that they are somehow less adequate as people -- and who judge others by the same criteria.

[Summah]

I think that's better described as trendy or faddish.

[Ormond]

I think that's better described as trendy or faddish.

That may be true. But if that's so, I think there are a lot of people out there who equate the two and who judge others who are NOT "trendy" as being inadequate.

[eyenon15]

I was just looking at the fashion design entry on Wikipedia.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion_design. Under the world fashion industry section.

It says ....."most major countries have a fashion industry. China and Bangladesh are the biggest manufacturers of fashion industry."

What does that mean? Just those countries export the most clothing or what. There is no citation for that statement. I was just curious what they are talking about there.

[Weeping Sore]

WS,

Does buying art make people "shallow". As Sologdin pointed out that's what high fashion is, a form of art. Enjoying art doesn't make someone shallow.

There's the potential if you're buying art as a status signifier because that particular artist is fashionable at the time, yes that could be shallow. Though, even if you have no sincere interest in art, you could buy it thinking the value will go up (i.e., as an investment) whereas clothes will always depreciate.

I'm going to stick with my conception of fashion design as a lesser form of art, as the statement it's making is just for the moment in an effort to wring the most possible money from the priviledged classes and those striving to look like the priviledged classes. (though clearly many other artists are in it for the money, too) An art whose sole ambition is the adornment of anorexic models and giving the rich something to do with their disposable income doesn't get much respect from me.

ETA: though for the record I don't think there's anything shallow about trying to look your best and having a personal style.

[Stannisaurus2]

Personally I don't equate "caring about one's personal appearance" to being "interested in fashion." I think one can be well groomed and well dressed without paying any attention at all to what is "current". I seem to recall many times in my life when what was considered currently "fashionable" in terms of hair styles or clothing did NOT seem to be "clean and neat" to me personally.

Same here, I don't even see a necessary connection between the two.

[Ormond]

I don't think clothing design is necessarily always as "shallow" as WS thinks.

But interest in fashion is "shallow" when "fashion" becomes a synonym for "conspicuous consumption." This applies to much more than just clothes and hair. If you buy a Picasso because you really like the painting, that's not shallow. If you buy a Picasso just to proclaim to yourself and/or others that you are somehow better because you can own something so expensive, that's shallow.

Automobiles, houses, furniture (whether the latest designs or "antiques"), televisions, and places one takes a vacation are probably just as susceptible to being used as shallow "conspicious consumption" markers as clothing and jewelry are. Being interested in expensive food and wine can be shallow if it focuses on conspicuous consumption rather than a true interest in either the taste, nutritional value, or history of what's consumed.

[TerraPrime]

I think the negative connotation in someone enjoying fashion stems from the general attitude that vanity is not a desirable trait. We want people to be well groomed, but we also don't want them to spend so much time on it because then it implies a level of self-centeredness that is culturally defined as inappropriate.

And to me, "shallow" isn't judging someone's taste in style or clothing. "Shallow" is judging that someone is less kind, less worthy as a friend or colleague, based on the fact that their aesthetics in clothing doesn't meet your approval. It applies to judging someone who wears only name-brand labels as too vain to judging someone dressing skimpy as too "slutty." Inferring personal characters from someone's clothing is shallow, imo. Saying "hey, that shirt doesn't match that dress" is not shallow, it's just a personal aesthetic call.

[deleted01]

Anyone who did that would be a tool not worth your time so would it matter?

While this is true, I can't boast of being thick-skinned enough to never care what people think of me.

[Summah]

That may be true. But if that's so, I think there are a lot of people out there who equate the two and who judge others who are NOT "trendy" as being inadequate.

That's true, and it's unfortunate for them. Because it's not just a judgment about a person's willingness to follow trends, but also how much disposable income they have to do so, which does make it quite shallow and classist.

I think there are a lot interesting aspects to fashion, not just that some fashion is a work of art like what Theda linked way earlier in the thread, but how it relates to different cultures and the history of fashion (globally) and costume of of course. When I was most interested and active, I think one of the reasons I originally learned how to sew was not just to make clothing in styles that were not being sold, but to make clothing that fit me properly, and I think this is a problem a lot of women have. I rarely find new clothes that fit me properly and are flattering off the rack, I can't afford tailors, so for a while I found it easier to make clothes than to tailor everything.

[Weeping Sore]

I don't think clothing design is necessarily always as "shallow" as WS thinks.

But interest in fashion is "shallow" when "fashion" becomes a synonym for "conspicuous consumption." This applies to much more than just clothes and hair. If you buy a Picasso because you really like the painting, that's not shallow. If you buy a Picasso just to proclaim to yourself and/or others that you are somehow better because you can own something so expensive, that's shallow.

Automobiles, houses, furniture (whether the latest designs or "antiques"), televisions, and places one takes a vacation are probably just as susceptible to being used as shallow "conspicious consumption" markers as clothing and jewelry are. Being interested in expensive food and wine can be shallow if it focuses on conspicuous consumption rather than a true interest in either the taste, nutritional value, or history of what's consumed.

Oddly, I think I'd respect a costume designer more than a fashion designer. Because a film is a more or less permanent record of some kind of intentional expression, of which costumes are an important part. Also, a movie can be "consumed" by a general audience for a small price.

ETA: Ormond & Terra, you're probably right that it's mostly "conspicuous consumption + vanity" that bothers me.

[eyenon15]

Some of the worst fashion elitism I've seen was from people who had zero interest in a fashion career or industry.

I have a friend who is always making fun of runway model fashion stuff, then he turns around and makes fun of people who don't own a pair of Jordan sneakers.

[Arbor Gold]

I currently have the Sept 2014 issue of Vogue and the Nordstrom Fall shopping guide on my coffee table and I can tell you that there are very specific fall trends which I will absolutely be avoiding this year. Which means that I will be an unfashionable loser, off-trend, with no cape, men's footwear, mid-length skirt, cropped, wide-leg pants, or open-toed boots this season. :(

Although come to think of it, I kind of feel like channeling my inner Edina Monsoon and putting together an outfit of ALL THE TRENDS. That would be hilarious.

Am I shallow? A little bit, yeah. I don't give a shit about how much $$ people spend on their clothing or if they have the newest Coach bag or whatever. But I do know with 100% certainty that I would have very little in common with a person who wears Vibrams as their everyday footwear.

[eyenon15]

99.9% of people are into fashion whether they admit it or not. I have an uncle who swears he doesn't give a shit about fashion but when I look at the his friends and people he hangs out with, they all are wearing a baseball hat with either an equipment manufacturer logo or a nascar logo with a fish hook(s) stuck in the brim, flannel shirt and blue jeans. I'm like how is this not a fashion Unc???? All of you you are rocking this same look.

[Fragile Bird]

I believe that Weeping Sore meant more along the lines of high couture than everyday clothing such as sweaters ;)

And If you got iPhone 4 when it came out then your 3 year contract should've run out already since iPhone 4 came out in 2010. ;)

Ha! Before the 4 I had a 3, which I got because my ordinary Sanyo or whatever it was died, and they had a deal on the 3. But with a 3 year contract, so that had to run out before I could get the 4, but I only got the 4 because my 3 was a crappy one and died. The six will be out for 6 months before this contract runs out. The phone company actually had the nerve to send me messages like "you can upgrade your phone by only paying $347 for your current device contract!". Now that it's only $60 to get out of the contract, they don't send me messages anymore.

[all swedes are racist]

When it comes to fashion, I like to wallow in the shallows. I love to wear obnoxiously loud Aloha shirts every chance I get.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSWlmYUbmTw-XZGYs8wu6A-d4LK1LkE-SwI20hTQd3IA2sQQfzrVA

I have this image on one of my favourite shirts.

Haha, sweet. Reminds me of this shirt