Why Would Rhaegar Not Marry a Targaryen?

[Lord Varys]

Yes, Rhae and Daella apparently had children, but we really don't know what happened to them.

A new pet theory of mine is that Dunk may have won Daella's hand before he decided to join the Kingsguard - the sister Egg was supposed to marry (that would be nice irony, wouldn't it) - and that a child from that union married into House Tarth, explaining why Dunk's shield of arms could be found in Lord Selwyn's armory. The idea that the Tarths married an acknowledged bastard of Ser Duncan the Tall is very unlikely indeed, as is the possibility that Dunk fathered an unacknowledged bastard on a woman of a noble house and then gave that child his own shield - those arms must have been already very famous when Dunk's child married into House Tarth, so giving the shield to the son/daughter would be all but a confirmation that Dunk was the father.

If that is true, then Lord Selwyn Tarth and Brienne would be closer Targaryen cousins than Elia and the other Martells - although the fact that they would descend from both a Targaryen princess and a lowborn hedge knight would make it somewhat unlikely that a woman from their line would be chosen as bride for Prince Rhaegar. Not to mention the fact that there was most likely no female Tarth available when Aerys searched for a bride for Rhaegar - and Brienne would never have been chosen anyway.

Dunk could have joined the KG easily enough after Daella's death and Egg's ascension to the Iron Throne...

Rhae also seems to have at least one child.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Yes, Rhae and Daella apparently had children, but we really don't know what happened to them.

A new pet theory of mine is that Dunk may have won Daella's hand before he decided to join the Kingsguard - the sister Egg was supposed to marry (that would be nice irony, wouldn't it) - and that a child from that union married into House Tarth, explaining why Dunk's shield of arms could be found in her father's armory. The idea that the Tarths married an acknowledged bastard of Ser Duncan the Tall is very unlikely indeed, as is the possibility that Dunk fathered an unacknowledged bastard on a woman of a noble house and then gave that child his own shield - those arms must have been already very famous when Dunk's child married into House Tarth, so giving the shield to the son/daughter would be all but a confirmation that Dunk was the father.

If that is true, then Lord Selwyn Tarth and Brienne would be closer Targaryen cousins than Elia and the other Martells - although the fact that they would descend from both a Targaryen princess and a lowborn hedge knight would make it somewhat unlikely that a woman from their line would be chosen as bride fro Prince Rhaegar. Not to mention the fact that there was most likely not female Tarth available when Aerys searched for a bride for Rhaegar - and Brienne would never have been chosen anyway.

Dunk could have joined the KG easily enough after Daella's death and Egg's ascension to the Iron Throne...

Rhae also seems to have at least one child.

Intriguing! Adding to my "if I ever meet GRRM, I'll ask him this" pile...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aerys and Rhaella could have tried to make another kid after Rhaegar was born but they didn't. Only 16 year later (before or after duskendale) Viserys was born. The ideal time to create a sister-wife for Rhaegar would have been during Jaeharys II's reign.

And perhaps they did. We don't know the reason of why there were 16 years between Rhaegar and Viserys. Perhaps Rhaella just had many failed pregnancies, like Lysa Tully had with Jon Arryn. I mean, Robert Arryn was born only after 9 years of marriage, after all.

And between Doran and Elia are 9 years as well. And that while we know there were miscarriages and two deaths in the cradle in between. Similar situations might apply to Rhaella and Aerys.

To the point of letting himself die?

These Baratheon are hard.

Steffon died when his ship sank in a storm. He couldn't have predicted that.

Where in the family is Elia a Targaryen? I don't remember.

Elia descents from the son of Maron Martell and Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon IV). There will be like 4 or 5 generations in between them, I think.

Actually I think Duskendale was in 277. I was going by the dates on the wiki, which I believe have recently been checked and in many cases re-figured by Rhaenys_Targaryen. So assuming the wiki is right and Viserys was born in 274/275 that's still before the defiance. I only saw the latest possible date of 279 for the defiance when I checked the wiki before, so yes my estimate was off. But I'm still certain it was before Duskendale. Even if you're right and Duskendale was in 276.

I did check the Defiance of Duskendale date :) With the information we currently have, the stretch of 276-279 is the more precise we can say it was, though it can logically be assumed that the date would have been closer to 276AC than to 279AC, as explained in the spoiler tags (for space).

“ Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there. ”

^[10]

According to Barristan Selmy, King Aerys II Targaryen hadn't set a foot out of the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet he made an exception when he went to the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281AC. Since it is known that Aerys visited a tourney in the Westerlands, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister, when Rhaegar Targaryen was 17 years old, the Defiance of Duskendale thus must have taken place somewhere in between these two tourneys.

During Aerys' visit to the Westerlands, Rhaegar Targaryen had been 17 years old, and Cersei Lannister had been 10 years old. With Rhaegar's birth in 259AC,^[7] and Cersei's birth in 266AC (seeCersei Lannister calculation), there are two possibilities for the date of this tourney:

• 276AC
  • Rhaegar would have been 16 turning 17
  • Cersei would have been 9 turning 10
• 277AC
  • Rhaegar would have been 17 turning 18
  • Cersei would have been 10 turning 11

As can be seen, in both years the criteria are met: Rhaegar is 17 years old, and Cersei 10. A definite date for the tourney cannot be given, but it can be stated with certainty that the tourney took place no earlier than 276AC. It is thus known that Aerys had left the Red Keep in 276AC at least.

Barristan Selmy's White Book entry states his accomplishments in the following order:

• Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower.
• Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge.
• Victor in the meddle at Maidenpool.
• Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt.
• Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former.

As can be seen, the Defiance took place before the Kingswood Brotherhood was defeated. The brotherhood was defeated early in 281AC, again establishing the year 281AC as the maximum year for the Defiance.

The Defiance thus took place in or between 276AC and 281AC.

“ Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. ”

^[11]

This is another quote from Barristan Selmy. The part "when he had not left the Red Keep for long years" suggests a minimum of two years since the Defiance took place. Since Harrenhal took place in 281AC, a minimum of 2 years can be subtracted, to find the maximum date for the Defiance at Duskendale.

This places the Defiance in or between 276AC and 279AC.

In addition: It is also known that Dontos Hollard was a boy when the Defiance took place. Dontos was born in or between 260AC and 263AC (see Dontos Hollard calculation). With Dontos being described as both "young" and having been a "boy",^[12] he would not have been 16 years old yet, since a 16 year old is seen as a man grown in Westeros. It seems most likely that Dontos was younger than 15, which favors Dontos' birth to have been closer to 263AC, and the Defiance closer to 276AC than to 279AC, making Dontos as young as possible. At the youngest, Dontos was born in 263AC, and the Defiance ended in 276AC the earliest, which could make him as young as 12 (to be turning 13 later in the year), which would qualify as young.

Thus, it seems most likely that the Defiance took place closer to 276AC than to 279AC. However, no certain specification can be given to make the possible timeframe smaller.

Yes, Rhae and Daella apparently had children, but we really don't know what happened to them.

A new pet theory of mine is that Dunk may have won Daella's hand before he decided to join the Kingsguard - the sister Egg was supposed to marry (that would be nice irony, wouldn't it) - and that a child from that union married into House Tarth, explaining why Dunk's shield of arms could be found in Lord Selwyn's armory. The idea that the Tarths married an acknowledged bastard of Ser Duncan the Tall is very unlikely indeed, as is the possibility that Dunk fathered an unacknowledged bastard on a woman of a noble house and then gave that child his own shield - those arms must have been already very famous when Dunk's child married into House Tarth, so giving the shield to the son/daughter would be all but a confirmation that Dunk was the father.

If that is true, then Lord Selwyn Tarth and Brienne would be closer Targaryen cousins than Elia and the other Martells - although the fact that they would descend from both a Targaryen princess and a lowborn hedge knight would make it somewhat unlikely that a woman from their line would be chosen as bride for Prince Rhaegar. Not to mention the fact that there was most likely no female Tarth available when Aerys searched for a bride for Rhaegar - and Brienne would never have been chosen anyway.

Dunk could have joined the KG easily enough after Daella's death and Egg's ascension to the Iron Throne...

Rhae also seems to have at least one child.

Brienne would have been too young to marry Rhaegar though (she was of an age with Rhaenys). And it is not stated that Selwyn had sisters (though he might have had.)

I suppose there are some Tarth cousins, otherwise Brienne would be at least a little concerned about the inheritance of Tarth, right? So there might have been a female Tarth. But perhaps that house was not important enough to be married to a Targaryen directly, in Aerys' eyes.

Nah. Viserys was eight when he fled from Dragonstone. Two years earlier at Harrenhal, Aerys hadn't left the Red Keep for the seven years since Duskendale (276). Including the nine months for the pregnancy, Viserys was conceived pretty much immediately after the Defiance.

It is never specified how many years passed between Duskendale and Harrenhal. Though it indeed most logically was 7 or 6 years prior to 281AC.

But even if you place Duskendale in 276AC.. Viserys was born in 274/275, according to his age (8 in 283AC) . So before the Defiance ;)

[Poppa Chase]

Intriguing! Adding to my "if I ever meet GRRM, I'll ask him this" pile...

I have in my basement if you want to come ask. I'm in the process of Having him write a chapter where Ned, Syrio, Robert, Robb, Benjen, Yoren, and Qorin are taking turns kicking ramsay, Walder, and Cersei. This series will end the way I want it to!

[Lord Varys]

I expect Selwyn has nephews and cousins through the male line, not through the female. He could have had 1-2 uncles, or something like that.

Brienne clearly wouldn't have fit age-wise, but even if she had, she would not have been chosen due to her ugliness.

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

Why didn't Rhaegar marry a Targaryen? Simple answer, there were no Targaryen women available, or simple put, he had no sisters to wed..

As far as mistory is concern, if there are no female Targaryens available to marriage, Targaryen princes then would go to their next closes kin and constant supplier of brides and consorts, the Velaryons of Driftmark.. And during those times, it seemed that there were also no available Velaryon ladies to wed for Rhaegar..

Next choice would probably be the Baratheons, another Valyrian kin and the king's close relative (Princess Rhaelle Targaryen married Lord Baratheon) and the Baratheons have also supplied the Targaryens with brides in the past, but we all know the Baratheons have no daughters to offer..

Aerys II may have also went to the Celtigars, another Valyrian kin but probably also ended the same (though history tells us that there have not been a Targaryen-Celtigar in known records shown so-far)..

We all know that King Aerys II then sent is first cousin Lord Steffon Baratheon to Essos to find Rhaegar a Valyrian bride and its not that Lord Steffon found no available women, its just that, none were of high enough birth to be considered as a suitable bride for a Targaryen heir to the throne..

And then, last house to scour possible consorts were the Martells who has the strongest Targaryen blood connection in recent history due to Princess Daenerys Targaryen to Prince Maron Martell.. Princess Elia Martell of Dorne has the ancestry and high enough birth to be considered as Rhaegar's wife..

If the Martells may not have Elia, then next houses to be sought may have been the Arryns (also have Targaryen ancestry from Princess Daella Targaryen), probably next were the Starks (former Kings of Winter) then probably the Hightowers (provided the Targaryens with 2 queens in the past: Ceryse Hightower (to Maegor I) and Alicent Hightower (to Viserys I). Other possible houses to have been considered may have been the Royces and Westerlings who both provided Targaryen brides and consorts in the past..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If the Martells may not have Elia, then next houses to be sought may have been the Arryns (also have Targaryen ancestry from Princess Daella Targaryen), probably next were the Starks (former Kings of Winter) then probably the Hightowers (provided the Targaryens with 2 queens in the past: Ceryse Hightower (to Maegor I) and Alicent Hightower (to Viserys I). Other possible houses to have been considered may have been the Royces and Westerlings who both provided Targaryen brides and consorts in the past..

It is highly unlikely that the current Arryns have Targaryen blood:

In the MUSH 2.0 (updated to be canon, where possible, with the Princess and the Queen, and also, IIRC, the World Book), a Joffrey Arryn has been added, a "most unlikely heir".

While it definitly is not certain that Lady Jeyne Arryn, who ruled the Vale during the reigns of Viserys I and Aegon II, was a descendant of Daella's, we do know that she inherited the Vale. If she was not a daughter or granddaughter of Daella (she seems to be too old to have been Daella's granddaughter, and too young to have been Daella's daughter), she was a daughter or granddaughter of the brother of Daella's husband, most likely. And when Daella and her husband only had one child (no siblings for Aemma are mentioned, and again, Jeyne seems to be quite somewhat younger than Aemma, but quite some older than Aemma's daughter), and Aemma married the heir to the throne, it would be Aemma giving up her rights to the Vale (similar to Arianne giving up her rights to Dorne, had her betrothal to Viserys resulted in a marriage).

Then, the Vale would go to the next line of Arryns, of which Jeyne was the eldest offspring.

Joffrey Arryn was born in 100AC, too old to have been a child of Jeyne's. He was also called, as I stated, a "most unlikely heir" to the Vale. Why? Most likely, Jeyne (and perhaps her children, if she had any) died, perhaps around the Dance, perhaps shortly after. If Jeyne and all her descendants died, the Vale would go to the next cousin, thus yet another line of Arryn's..

All in all, it seems rather safe to say that the current Arryns do not have any Targaryen blood (from Daella).

[Ingelheim]

Steffon died when his ship sank in a storm. He couldn't have predicted that.

It was a joke.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Has Dany been already blamed for this? Because if we go there, then it's Viserys's fault for having a penis.

I wonder why the Daynes didn't try to match Ashara to Rhaegar. In fact, I wonder why many other houses didn't parade their daughters in front of him like Tywin did.

[Ingelheim]

Has Dany been already blamed for this? Because if we go there, then it's Viserys's fault for having a penis.

I wonder why the Daynes didn't try to match Ashara to Rhaegar. In fact, I wonder why many other houses didn't parade their daughters in front of him like Tywin did.

While Ashara was beautiful as hell, she's a Dayne. Too small to be the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

While Ashara was beautiful as hell, she's a Dayne. Too small to be the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

It wouldn't have hurt to try.

But considering Rhaegar had no sisters, most families could have tried to offer him their daughters. It's not like the Targaryens never married another house before. Not even the Martells made their move, as they were going for a Martell/Lannister alliance, and they had more chances.

[Ingelheim]

It wouldn't have hurt to try.

But considering Rhaegar had no sisters, most families could have tried to offer him their daughters. It's not like the Targaryens never married another house before. Not even the Martells made their move, as they were going for a Martell/Lannister alliance, and they had more chances.

I'm not saying the Targs didn't marry outside their own House. They just married either members of Great Houses, or members of Houses with Valyrian blood (Celtigar, Velaryon and that BS).

While there are these good theories about the House Dayne being the ancestors of the Valyrians, I don't know if our Mad King had ever heard of that. Dayne, at the end, is not more important than any other average House out there.

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

It is highly unlikely that the current Arryns have Targaryen blood:

We'll that is true.. But still, i think, an Arryn bride would have been chosen before, say a Tyrell or even a Lannister..

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm not saying the Targs didn't marry outside their own House. They just married either members of Great Houses, or members of Houses with Valyrian blood (Celtigar, Velaryon and that BS).

While there are these good theories about the House Dayne being the ancestors of the Valyrians, I don't know if our Mad King had ever heard of that. Dayne, at the end, is not more important than any other average House out there.

I think GRRM said they aren't related (although the purple eyes gene must have come from some common ancestor).

Mmm... maybe, had Arthur being an ambitious man, he could have say "have you see my astonishingly beautiful sister?".

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

Has Dany been already blamed for this? Because if we go there, then it's Viserys's fault for having a penis.

I wonder why the Daynes didn't try to match Ashara to Rhaegar. In fact, I wonder why many other houses didn't parade their daughters in front of him like Tywin did.

Well, a Dayne is quite low for a Targaryen heir apparent.. The Daynes are two ranks below the Targaryens.. But who knows, Targaryens kings have married wives from third tier houses before like the Hightowers and Westerlings, and they like the Daynes are among the oldest families in the Seven Kingdoms.. But they have something the Daynes have, the Hightowers are practically a paramount house in all by title with strong connection to the Citadel and the Faith, while the Westerlings, at-least during the time when Maegor I married Jeyne Westerling, may have been one of the wealthiest houses in the realm probably rivaling the Reynes..

[RumHam]

With the dragons extinct the Targaryens really didn't have to worry about keeping the blood pure for dragon riding anymore. Pretty much the only virtue of continuing incest would be to preserve the Targaryen look. (I look at the Cesei thing as being about Aerys' resentment of Tywin, not an issue of blood purity.) So the Daynes might have been an acceptable choice.

[Lord Varys]

It would not be surprising if many of the sons of Daeron II were married to non-Targaryen brides.

First, Daeron himself had a non-Targaryen wife, and we the other Targaryen king who, most likely, had a non-Targaryen wife, Aegon V, also arranged non-incestuous marriages for his children.

Second, there simply may have been not enough sisters/cousins.

Third, some of Daeron's sons may have been married after the Blackfyre Rebellion was crushed, suggesting that some of the die-hard Targaryen loyalists who fought on Daeron's side reaped royal marriages as a reward later on.

Prince Rhaegel's children are still young in TMK, for instance, suggesting that he only married after the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

Aegon III and Viserys II continued the traditional incestuous marriages - Aegon-Naerys, Baelor-Daena. Baelor broke the thing with the political marriage of Daeron-Myriah, and Elaena seems to have been married also to non-Targaryen husbands.

[Ingelheim]

I think GRRM said they aren't related (although the purple eyes gene must have come from some common ancestor).

Mmm... maybe, had Arthur being an ambitious man, he could have say "have you see my astonishingly beautiful sister?".

I don't know if Arthur would want his sister to be around Aerys, though.

[tze]

A new pet theory of mine is that Dunk may have won Daella's hand before he decided to join the Kingsguard - the sister Egg was supposed to marry (that would be nice irony, wouldn't it) - and that a child from that union married into House Tarth, explaining why Dunk's shield of arms could be found in Lord Selwyn's armory.

What an interesting theory. I'm especially curious where you got the "Dunk may have married Egg's sister" portion of this theory, given that I don't see any hints whatsoever toward that in the text, and you give no explanation here for where this part of your theory originated.

[Lord Varys]

No idea in which thread I came up with that thing first, but the idea is based on the fact that

1. Dunk is very interested in women, and not particularly interested in joining the KG. Thus something exceptional must happen to convince him. Perhaps the death of his wife, and the decision of the Great Council in 233? I'm not sure why Dunk would have wanted to serve in a Kingsguard which was also sworn to protect and obey Prince or King Aerion.

2. We know that Egg marries for love - which seems to indicate that he will not marry Daella, who will then, in turn, become free to marry somebody else. She could fall in love with Dunk, and if Egg gets permission - most likely by Aerys I - to marry for love, possibly a woman from a lower house, Daella could get a similar permission. Especially if Dunk has already shown his merit by then repeatedly - say, in another Blackfyre Rebellion, or during another major crisis? By that time, Maekar and his sons may have still been far down in the line of succession, and Daella would most likely never ascend to the Iron Throne, anyway. Why not allow her to follow her heart?

3. Pennytree eventually becomes a royal fief. If it features in the planned D&E story 'The Village Hero', my idea is that Egg claims it for the Iron Throne to grant it eventually to Dunk as a reward to his service. Meaning that it only became a royal fief for good and all after Daella died and Dunk joined the KG - the assumption then would be that they had only one daughter who married into House Tarth, and Dunk handed Pennytree back to the Iron Throne when he took his vows.

4. The fact that Egg names his firstborn son Duncan is pretty big thing. He is clearly named after Dunk, and it could only be a nod towards their great friendship, but it may even be more. A reflection of the fact that they are united by blood as well as by oath.

However, I admit that there is (as of yet) no textual basis for such an assumption. It is just a theory. But it would be a nice symmetry - not only with Egg's marriage for love, but also a reflection of the whole Duncan-Jenny-story.

And the idea that Dunk, in the end, fell seriously in love with the very sister Egg was supposed to marry would both be fun as well as potential source of tension, if Dunk's love for Daella preceded Egg's own love for his future bride, causing tensions between the two...

Even if it is not Daella, I'm pretty sure that Dunk was married before he joined the Kingsguard. The idea that he had (a lot of) bastards with plenty of (married) women does not sound ring right with me, especially not after he had joined the Kingsguard.