The PUA community - providing bread since 2014

[Larry of the Lawn]

And sometimes they say straight up how they really feel. It's hard to believe this stuff can be hailed as words of wisdom to pass on one's kid.

td;lr: Ditch her at the slightest sign of a flaw. Feminazis and Western women have ruined everything.

This is some kind of paradigm shift; train your kid to join the kind of internet forum ready to embrace your manifesto and let your vapid observations on life echo in eternity.

[all swedes are racist]

I get what you're saying man, but you might want to edit

td;lr: Ditch her at the slightest sign of a flaw. Feminazis and Western women have ruined everything.

to have, like quotes or something, because it can kinda look like that's your statement...

[Starkess]

So treating all women as the same (and negatively, to boot) is just "somewhat generalizations" that everyone knows don't mean anything. But commenting on a defined subculture that people voluntarily join and build up means "hey, there are a lot of different facets and you can't treat them all the same!"

[Solmyr]

Finished reading Elana Clift's thesis, here are the rest of the cliffnotes from it (the other ones can be found in my earlier post):

The Seduction Community attempts to simplify dating by establishing its own sets of rules and methods that, supposedly, can be applied in any real-world situation. In this way, the Seduction Community is clearly a response to the current lack of dating structure, and therefore points to a larger concern among men and women in this time about dating norms and expectations. (E. CLIFT p. 54)

PUAs implicitly reject their own commodification by encouraging each other not to pay during the initial stages of dating. The men of the Seduction Community insist that the expectation that a man should pay is a socially constructed and harmful gender role. (E. CLIFT p. 65) … For this reason, DeAngelo and many other teachers within the Seduction Community have taken money out of the dating equation altogether by encouraging PUAs to take women on creative and cheap dates. (E. CLIFT p. 65) … Most of the PUAs with whom I spoke agreed that when first getting to know a woman, he should not pay (because they believe it will lower their value), but that on subsequent dates, it was within reason for him to pay. In fact, a few of the PUAs who I interviewed felt that it was their duty to pay for subsequent dates. (E. CLIFT p. 67)

Harmless explained to me that he was having no difficulty bedding women, but that he was unable to maintain their interest longer than a few days or a week. In frustration he searched the Internet for tips on attracting women. Reading the information on various websites and message boards gave him a new perspective. (E. CLIFT p. 102-103)

Many men, however, remain online, never implementing the knowledge they acquire from chat rooms and message boards. … These men find it less intimidating to remain behind their computers, learning but not doing; this is not surprising, as the prospect of going out and experiencing rejection from women is essentially what has kept a great number of them from ever acquiring the skills to pickup women. (E. CLIFT p. 103)

He explains that the disinhibition effect leads many to explore “territory they would never explore in the real world.” For men of the Seduction Community the disinhibition effect is especially strong, as the shame a man may feel by admitting openly to his friends that he is unable to attract women is more than most can bear. The anonymity of the Internet provides men the opportunity to discuss embarrassing details of their personal lives while assuring privacy. (E. CLIFT p. 105)

For men of the Seduction Community, cyberanonymity allows them to freely access information about how to overcome rejection from women, without exposing themselves to the social ridicule that might accompany the admission of such a personal flaw. … At the same time that the Internet provides anonymity, it also supplies a vast availability of information. For this reason, the accessibility of the Internet allows many men, who may not have otherwise done so, to obtain information regarding how to pickup women. (E. CLIFT p. 107-108)

My initial impression of the Seduction Community was that of outrage and disgust. Despite these feelings, I trusted that my brother would not involve himself in something inherently reprehensible. And so, I began a personal quest to discover what value there could be in the Seduction Community. I was surprised to find that the more I researched, the less shocking the community seemed. As I delved into the world of the Seduction Community, each pickup artist whom I met confounded my expectations. With each man’s story, my conception of a “pickup artist,” as well as of the community itself, shifted and expanded. For this reason, this project has attempted to go beyond the label of pickup artist in order to see these men as not only a part of a larger male community, but as a reflection of broader social trends. (E. CLIFT p. 116)

As a woman who regards herself as a feminist, I deplore the system of privileges afforded to men. But at the same time, my numerous interactions with the men of the Seduction Community opened my eyes to the problems that these men experienced. Still, how could I support a community with such a gendered social outlook? (E. CLIFT p. 117-118)

I had only acquired knowledge, and never acted. As the community expands into the mainstream, with multiple television shows, a movie, and professionally published books, there will be many who, like me, will simply acquire knowledge and never develop the skills of the game. (E. CLIFT p. 119 – the last paragraph of the conclusion of the thesis)

Yesterday, when I was only halfway through, I expressed reservations that because the thesis was written back in 2007 it might not reflect the current aspects of the community. However, upon reading it through and through, I see that the author has also attempted, by observing how the community has developed in the past, to predict the future trends in the community - trends we are discussing in this very thread.

I see that despite the several sources provided in the threads, most of the discussion remains anecdotal. I can only wish more of you would take the time to acquire broader knowledge of the subject.

[Suttree]

Cherry picking parts of a single college paper written in 2007 by a BA student counts as acquiring a "broader knowledge" of the subject? Classic.

[Guy Kilmore]

Cherry picking parts of a single college paper written in 2007 by a BA student counts as acquiring a "broader knowledge" of the subject? Classic.

A a sited and researched source. You may disagree or dislike Solymr, but, it was posted by someone else and from what I read appears to be well thought out and more worthy of consideration than what you have just given it.

[Suttree]

Rather beside the point no? The source is not the issue.

[Guy Kilmore]

Rather beside the point no? The source is not the issue.

What is the point then? Or is that you just thought Solymr was being a jerk in his statement and that was where you decided to deride the source material?

Edited for clarity

[Suttree]

Since when does excerpts from any single BA students' paper represent a "broader knowledge" of a given subject. Especially when said source is thoroughly cherry picked by Solymr, as you well know if you've read the piece.

More so with the plethora of evidence readily available for anyone with an inclination to do a bit of research it's beyond disingenuous for him to dismiss others opinions as "anecdotal" as if no one in thread is actually familiar with the topic. Aside from Solymr of course who after this exercise has .5 units in cherry picking.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Since when does any single source represent a "broader knowledge" of a given subject. Especially when said source is thoroughly cherry picked as you well know if you've read the piece.

Presumably, something constitutes "broader knowledge" of a given subject if it presents or synthesizes information that had not previously been presented in the discussion. The paper he cited does both. Further, since it actually cites to multiple "primary" documents on the subject, it's actually broadening factual foundations of the discussions immensely.

Considering that virtually all of the prior "citations" in this thread and the prior thread were simply links to, and gawking at, the obviously misogynistic (and misanthropic) rantings of message board posters on various sites, the fact that the paper Solymyr cited actually references the foundational "pick-up" works directly already suggests it's operating on a better foundation for critical analysis.

[Suttree]

Edited for clarity.

Also curious as to where you fall in on the topic Nestor?

[Angalin]

Mod gloves on, due to posts both in this and the previous thread:

- quit the personal sniping

- stick to the info you're given or bring in something better yourself

- do not dictate to others what language or tone they may use; objecting to slurs is one thing, having a problem with colourful language is just silly. If it's that offensive to you, report it.

Now I need more coffee.

[Solmyr]

Especially when said source is thoroughly cherry picked by Solymr...

What else did you expect me to do? Post the entire paper? What I did was extracting the passages directly related to our current debate. The paper as a whole is quite interesting and I have encouraged everyone to read it in full; but not everyone has the time to read ~150 pages of academic literature. Moreover, a lot of the paper's contents has to do with historic american values, men's movements, fraternities, dating in the late 19th and early 20th century and etcetera - topics that warrant exploring if one is doing an academic paper, but hardly in the direct scope of this thread.

ETA: Earlier in the thread you denied my accusations of an ad hominem fallacy, yet it is evident that you are willing to discount third party source material just because it is used as part of my argument.

[Suttree]

Indeed. To my mind cherry picking pieces from one college students thesis does not constitute a "broader knowledge". If you were willing to give a more rounded snapshot, even from that one paper it might help.

[Angalin]

Mod gloves on, due to posts both in this and the previous thread:

- quit the personal sniping

- stick to the info you're given or bring in something better yourself

- do not dictate to others what language or tone they may use; objecting to slurs is one thing, having a problem with colourful language is just silly. If it's that offensive to you, report it.

Now I need more coffee.

*goes back for another cup*

[Solmyr]

*goes back for another cup*

Apologies for disturbing your morning [i presume] routine :blushing:.

What was said, was said, the personal stuff has been removed, no more shall come from me - I will be back when more posts of substance have appeared.

[Wise Fool]

I don't really understand your complaint to be honest. What do you mean by "those ideas"? I mean, sure it's sexist. Of course it is. Duh. What I'm mostly trying to get across is that it's mostly harmless. There's a lot of marketing and blog posts and all this talk and bluster, but the reality on the ground is pretty different. It's really not that big of a deal.

I see these threads pop up on forums from time to time. There's always this predictable level of outrage. People think gosh, these men are so horrible, they hate women, they just want to get laid, they use psychological trickery, blah blah blah...But where are the victims? Seriously, other than some awkward guys making awkward approaches in bars and clubs, I'm not sure where the harm is. I mean, other than the harm to bank accounts by unscrupulous marketers, which is my basic complaint with the whole thing. I'm all for guys getting out there and approaching and trying to meet women. But when these charlatans get involved, they make big promises and they suck these guys in and it's just not good. I think guys that need this help would be better served by something more realistic that was focused on the basics. But that sort of thing doesn't sell that well I guess.

I see these threads pop up too. And there's always this predictable level of half-assed, weak-kneed defenses from people like you. "It's sexist, but where's the victims?" What utter drivel. Good show, condemning the "charlatan" and commercial aspects, though. When people make excuses for immorality or any kind of abominable filth, I prefer they just come out with it, instead of trying to hedge and hide and haw and hem. But, naked bigotry doesn't sell that well either, and so you dress it up in some ill-fitting hand-me-downs, hoping nobody notices. They totally notice though.