So why is Dany not Azor Ahai reborn?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dany is the Stallion.

Jon is lightbringer

Rhaegar was AA.

[aFeastForDragons]

She ticks all the boxes and everything points to her but that doesn't seem to convince us. Same way Stannis and Jon can't be dead.

[Consigliere]

Sure, Aemon could be right and Dany could certainly be AAR. On the other side of the coin, Dany has fulfilled the prophecy to a tee and if that is not enough we have two characters (Aemon and Benerro) who explicitly tell us that she is the one. That screams red herring.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sure, Aemon could be right and Dany could certainly be AAR. On the other side of the coin, Dany has fulfilled the prophecy to a tee and if that is not enough we have two characters (Aemon and Benerro) who explicitly tell us that she is the one. That screams red herring.

Yep.

I think the prophecy that will fulfil it's the one she believes it won't. The one about her son, which was actually about her.

[Poppa Chase]

I think that Dany is TPTWP.

It's like Aemon said, the dragons prove it. The Prince is suppose to wake dragons from stone and Dany is the only one who has done so. I just can't see GRRM introducing any more dragon eggs to be awoken. And if it's metaphorical then the person who wakes Jon from stone if he is indeed dead would be the one to consider as TPTWP. To prove that you're TPTWP you have to perform the act not have it performed on you.

Dany AGOT:

They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

Dany ACOK

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star. The old men muttered that it omened ill, but Daenerys Targaryen had seen it first on the night she had burned Khal Drogo, the night her dragons had awakened. It is the herald of my coming, she told herself as she gazed up into the night sky with wonder in her heart. The gods have sent it to show me the way.

The Jade Compendium:

Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.

Dany in Astapor

Drogon, she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. Dracarys.

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.

Dany ADWD

When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.

Stannis explaining why dragons are much better in battle than swords:

It glimmers prettily, Ill grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?

Well done. Thanks for the time and support.

[Poppa Chase]

Yep.

I think the prophecy that will fulfil it's the one she believes it won't. The one about her son, which was actually about her.

I thought that maybe mountains blowing in the wind is the wall being blown away. The Dothraki sea drying up might be when seas go dry. The sun is Quentyn.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I thought that maybe mountains blowing in the wind is the wall being blown away. The Dothraki sea drying up might be when seas go dry. The sun is Quentyn.

Not that one. That's more like a "when pigs fly" statement rather than a prophecy. I meant the one about Rhaego being the Stallion. She thinks they were wrong, but neither Dany nor them knew that. Whatever they saw, it was about Dany.

[DragonDreamer]

Well done. Thanks for the time and support.

You're welcome. :cheers:

Also worth mentioning is the fact that all these people know about the prophecy including Jon (who has his fiery sword dream after hearing about AAR. But Dany knows nothing about this prophecy, about what it mean and what the requirement are. She only hear about TPTWP in passing in the HOTU, she knows nothing of AAR.

[para]

Okay, it's a stretch to say that Dany fits the story of AA to a tee. She doesn't - but other people mirror the story even less.

But here's the rub - why does the story of the second coming have to be identical with the story of the first coming? That Stannis' sword wasn't tempered by his killing of Selyse seems to have no influence on Mel's belief in him as AA. That means that the miraculous forging of Lightbringer is not part of the prophecy. Neither is the second coming of Nissa Nissa.

As such I would disregard the whole sword-forging as entirely irrelevant to the question of AA. To be fair, that means that the only useful hint for AA is the promised prince prophecy and we have no idea whether that is even the same prophecied person.

[Poppa Chase]

Okay, it's a stretch to say that Dany fits the story of AA to a tee. She doesn't - but other people mirror the story even less.

But here's the rub - why does the story of the second coming have to be identical with the story of the first coming? That Stannis' sword wasn't tempered by his killing of Selyse seems to have no influence on Mel's belief in him as AA. That means that the miraculous forging of Lightbringer is not part of the prophecy. Neither is the second coming of Nissa Nissa.

As such I would disregard the whole sword-forging as entirely irrelevant to the question of AA. To be fair, that means that the only useful hint for AA is the promised prince prophecy and we have no idea whether that is even the same prophecied person.

Melisandre is not a great example. She sees what she wants to see, and she is a cheat. She glamored Stannis' Lightbringer because she knows she is wrong.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Okay, it's a stretch to say that Dany fits the story of AA to a tee. She doesn't - but other people mirror the story even less.

But here's the rub - why does the story of the second coming have to be identical with the story of the first coming? That Stannis' sword wasn't tempered by his killing of Selyse seems to have no influence on Mel's belief in him as AA. That means that the miraculous forging of Lightbringer is not part of the prophecy. Neither is the second coming of Nissa Nissa.

As such I would disregard the whole sword-forging as entirely irrelevant to the question of AA. To be fair, that means that the only useful hint for AA is the promised prince prophecy and we have no idea whether that is even the same prophecied person.

I'm one of the people who doesn't necessarily believe there will be an Azor Ahai or Prince That Was Promised. But if there is one, Para is absolutely right: what on earth makes us assume that every little detail of the story will be the same this time as before?

And if it does happen, I would certainly hope that the sword-forging story would prove to be irrelevant. I find that story rather abhorrent, to tell the truth. You really love somebody, and yet you brutally kill her because you it's one more thing you haven't tried yet to possibly forge some super-duper sword? With no particular reason to think it will work? Bleh.

[para]

Melisandre is not a great example. She sees what she wants to see, and she is a cheat. She glamored Stannis' Lightbringer because she knows she is wrong.

Mel is crazy and perhaps delusional. But she really believes in Stannis as AA and she really believes in her god, so even with the fake sword, Stannis must fit the general idea of AA well enough.

[Consigliere]

Okay, it's a stretch to say that Dany fits the story of AA to a tee. She doesn't - but other people mirror the story even less.

When I said to a tee, I mean she fits the prophecy almost perfectly based on the info we are given in the books.

1. The bleeding star heralds his coming. We are explicity told the the comet is the bleeding star. Dany sees the comet before she walks into the pyre

2. We are told that Dragonstone is the place of salt and smoke. Dany was born on DS.

3. We are told that AA will wake dragons from stone. Dany literally woke dragons from stone.

The Lightbringer portion is where she does not meet the prophecy exactly although her dragons have been descibed as a flaming sword. An argument can be made that Drogo played the part of Nissa Nissa and was a crucial component for the dragon eggs hatching.

[Bran17]

I remember him said something about her being right or maybe that she was not what the people think that she is? I really cannot rememeber.

You think huh? Please point me to the exact quote in AGOT, ACOK, AFFC or ADWD which clearly is said by everyone that Dany is AAR, because btw Aemon was talking about TPTWP not AAR.

GRRM? I had no idea that you were a member of those forums!

Hey, man! :lol:

TPTWP is Azor Ahai. They are just named differently by different cultures/religions.

[The Dragons Hand]

She does fit all the criteria, and did it just as the red star began to emerge.

[The Dragons Hand]

Dany is the Stallion.

Jon is lightbringer

Rhaegar was AA.

I thought Stallion's were male. Dothraki doesn't have the Valyrian gender-bending grammar.

[Bran17]

When I said to a tee, I mean she fits the prophecy almost perfectly based on the info we are given in the books.

1. The bleeding star heralds his coming. We are explicity told the the comet is the bleeding star. Dany sees the comet before she walks into the pyre

2. We are told that Dragonstone is the place of salt and smoke. Dany was born on DS.

3. We are told that AA will wake dragons from stone. Dany literally woke dragons from stone.

The Lightbringer portion is where she does not meet the prophecy exactly although her dragons have been descibed as a flaming sword. An argument can be made that Drogo played the part of Nissa Nissa and was a crucial component for the dragon eggs hatching.

The Lightbringer portion not being literal is what makes it so perfect, imo.

The clues that point toward Jon being AA are laughable, to say the least.

If Dany is a "red herring", GRRM made a terrible mistake making her more believable as AA/TPTWP than the real one.

Coherency has to be a priority.

[UnmaskedLurker]

As others have noted, Dany as AAR is a classic red herring. She seems to meet the criteria and a relatively reliable character theorizes that she is AAR (or at least TPTWP, who I believe is the same person). But when Mel tried to see AAR, all she sees is Snow (capitalization in the original). Basically, GRRM is telling the reader that Jon Snow is AAR. Mel does not understand this, and continues to think Stannis is AAR (another obvious red herring). But Jon is AAR, as well as TPTWP. I think Dany is TSTMTW (even though a stallion would appear to be male--this is derivative of Aemon's clue that old prophesies may not be translated to get the gender correct--but it was a different prophesy than the one Aemon thought about).

[UnmaskedLurker]

The Lightbringer portion not being literal is what makes it so perfect, imo.

The clues that point toward Jon being AA are laughable, to say the least.

If Dany is a "red herring", GRRM made a terrible mistake making her more believable as AA/TPTWP than the real one.

Coherency has to be a priority.

That is because the events that will cause fulfillment of the prophesy for Jon largely have not happened yet. His "re-birth" will not happen until WoW (at the earliest). So you are only looking at the events so far, but by the time the series is over, Jon will fit the criteria perfectly (I strongly suspect). Mel's vision, revealing "Snow" is enough to convince me that Jon is AAR.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Because GRRM isn't in the habit of correctly solving and explicitly stating said solutions to his own mysteries. As soon as Aemon (and later the red priests) said that Dany was AA, I figured that she either wasn't or that GRRM was going in a different direction with it. For her to fulfill it so literally and then for Aemon to more or less beat us upside the head with it screams "the lady doth protest too much."

And GRRM has said in at least one interview before that he doesn't go for making solutions to prophecies too literal. It doesn't help her case that she seems to fulfill it literally when the author has said that isn't really how he rolls.

(And before anyone tries to the play the "you just don't like her" card, I thought this well before I turned against her.)