So why is Dany not Azor Ahai reborn?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I thought Stallion's were male. Dothraki doesn't have the Valyrian gender-bending grammar.

And the Dothraki wouldn't consider their greatest champion to be a pasty ass white woman either. That is the point. The Dosh Khaleen saw something related to Daenerys and interpreted it has her son because a woman couldn't possibly do those things based on how they view women in their culture.

[koststerg]

Things we know

1. AA reborn is one person

2. The PtwP is three persons-heads (so we cannot identify completely AA with PtwP)

3. The figures have each one each own prophecy and we don't know the exact wording of either.

4. The AA prophecy is thousand years old, is the heart of the red god religion, a lot of people in the east (especially the red priests Mel and Victarion's priest) know it and since it is so old there are more versions of it (seems to speak of Lightbringer -not clear if it mentions dragons). I am not sure that Rhaegar knew it. It is described in the 1st book that Maester Aemon leaves for Jon.

5. The PtwP prophecy is more recent, it was known among the Targaryen family (Rhaegar and Aemon included), clearly Mel knows about it, it definitely speaks of dragons and there are 3 heads. It is described in the 2nd book that Maester Aemon reads and probably leaves for Jon (From fall to apotheosis or something).

6. The 2 persons that know both prophecies (mel and Aemon) are convinced they speak for the same person (which means that they merge them in their heads, so when mel says that AA will wake dragons, she might mean that AA who is PtwP who will wake the dragons)

7. From all the prophecies Dany got in Qarth (which we saw "live" as readers and many of them have been proven correct) none involved a fight with the Others

8. Mel sees "live" (and we as readers with her) that AA is connected with "snow"

For me Dany is the PtwP (or at least the 1st head of the three). As Aemon says the dragons prove it. AA could be Dany or Jon.

[No Song so Sweet]

Dragons are light? really? does light kill children in Essos and spread chaos everywhere?

Daenerys isn't AAR (at least not yet) because she hasn't fulfilled the prophecy yet. She hasn't fought others, she doesn't have a flaming sword, she isn't a warrior and also Aemon's interpretation that Prince means Princess in this case because dragons have no gender is flimsy and not necessarily true.

[titanx5]

So is Maester Aemon speaks the word of truth, and whatever he says is the word of god? No. Of course Aemon is going to say a Targ is AA. I hope there is no AA and all its a myth. Also not all people who believe Dany isnt AA are Dany haters. Plus we dont need anymore titles for Dany they are becoming difficult to fit on a pg already. So like a said I would prefer no AA, or that its a few characters. I wouldnt mind if Jon, Stannis, Dany were all AA, and 3 heads of the dragon, but the whole one character is the savior, messiah of Westeros is so cliche in fantasies, so I hope GRRM would avoid this scenario.

[Martini Sigil]

Are we absolutely sure that anyone is going to be Azor Ahai reborn? Does every prophecy have to be credible?

[ChillyPolly]

My problem is this: While AA-reborn is certainly the "Prince that Was Promised" of the Red God religion, it does not follow that he is the sort of "Prince that was Promised" that Aemon has in mind.

The AA myth is a myth glorifying and justifying human sacrifice, by an evil religion that glorifies and justifies human sacrifice. The natural result of its doctrines is not the salvation of the world, but rather the destruction of the world through escalating cycles of violence and despair. This of course is R'hllor's real goal, in cooperation with his evil buddies the Drowned God, the Storm God, and the Great Other, and the Stallion Who Forks Up the World. This is of course why Melisandre's powers grow stronger near the Wall. She is near another of the strongholds of Hell.

I rather like Aemon, so I'd like to believe he would not fall for that sort of nonsense. So I hope that the PTWP that he has in mind is a different sort of character.

That does not meant that Dany cannot be Aemon's PTWP, rather than the Red God's AHorIzAi, but I think she may have to reverse course at some point. Otherwise she is more in danger of destroying the world than saving it.

Also, Aemon clearly believes that the Dragon has 3 heads and that Dany must therefore be one of three. But he cannot think who the other two are. As he acknowledges, he himself (one of the few Targs left) is too old. But if there are two others (and if only one of them is "The Prince that Was Promised"), then there must obviously be two other candidates for the PTWP besides Dany.

[Fire Eater]

GRRM doesn't have the prophecy explained in text until after the prophesied event occurs. Whenever a character tries to interpret a prophecy before it occurs, they are nearly always wrong. Dany being proclaimed AA by Aemon and Benerro makes it not unlikely that she is a red herring as others have said. It would be giving away the ending for Dany as well, and GRRM has a habit of misleading readers, building impressions just to pull the rug out from under the reader.

I think that Dany is TPTWP.

It's like Aemon said, the dragons prove it. The Prince is suppose to wake dragons from stone and Dany is the only one who has done so. I just can't see GRRM introducing any more dragon eggs to be awoken. And if it's metaphorical then the person who wakes Jon from stone if he is indeed dead would be the one to consider as TPTWP. To prove that you're TPTWP you have to perform the act not have it performed on you.

GRRM:

Prophecy is one of those tropes of Fantasy that is fun to play with, but it can easily turn into a straightjacket if you're not careful. One of the themes of my fiction, since the very beginning, is that the characters must make their choices, for good or ill. And making choices is hard. There are prophecies in my Seven Kingdoms, but their meanings are often murky and misleading, and they seldom offer the characters much in the way of useful guidance.

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy

The prophecy being Dany literally hatching her dragon eggs is too literal.

I think she has a pretty good claim to being AA. But so do a lot of people.

The problem with GRRM is he always plays these massive mind tricks and leads you in the wrong direction. So, the fact that Dany seems like the most obvious candidate makes people second-guess themselves and think she can't possibly be, because it's too obvious. And then evidence came out that Jon could be, and while a lot of people see him as AA for sure now, others think again, it's too obvious and must be a (more) minor character like Davos or Shireen or Mance Rayder.

Jon isn't too obvious as no one explicitly called him AA.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I am too lazy to expand on it now on how it fits on Jon Snow but I think the Azor Ahai and prince that was promised fits for Jon too but it also fits for Daenerys. And it might not be both Azor Ahai and prince that was promised the same person.

What I am pretty sure is that both Daenerys (fire) Jon Snow (Ice and fire) and Bran (ice) would play an important role in the battle of ice and fire. Maybe Bran is the Last Hero? Maybe not. Daenerys and Bran have strong magical connection and I expect Jon Snow to do some impressive things as well.

So Daenerys is important but maybe she is Azor Ahai, maybe she isn't. I am not sure how to fit Daenerys and Jon Snow and maybe Bran into the prophecies but I am pretty confident they have their role to play.

[Nictarion]

Jon isn't too obvious as no one explicitly called him AA.

So if they do in the next book, will that still apply?

For me the guy who is already at the Wall, and is easily the most classic fantasy type hero being the key to defeating the Others is too obvious.

[sj4iy]

I think AAR is TPTWP.

I think both Dany and Jon could be this person, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were Dany, but the events of ADWD have pushed me into thinking it's Jon.

Btw, I like both Dany and Jon, so I don't care which is which, I'm just saying what I think the last book hinted at.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon isn't too obvious as no one explicitly called him AA.

I've actually seen some people who think it's Dany say that it can't be Jon because that would be too obvious, which makes absolutely zero sense.

A point on GRRM's statement about literalism: Typically when we see or hear about visions that include animals or sigil items, it's symbolic, not literal. A kraken and a lion are not literally en route to Dany, a dead woman was not literally a fish, a crow was not literally on the shoulder of a man who literally had no face. We've seen this multiple times with dragons, too. Baelor Breakspear was the dead dragon who fell on Dunk. Aegon V was the dragon who hatched at Whitewalls (also, a dragon hatching at Whitewalls? Come the fuck on). I think we'll eventually learn that Aegon V tried to hatch dragons at Summerhall because of a prophecy, and the result was Rhaegar's birth. It's all been symbolic, which, wouldn't you know, tracks well with the author's own statement that he doesn't want things to happen too literally.

So why do people put that much stock in Dany literally hatching dragons?

[Nictarion]

So why do people put that much stock in Dany literally hatching dragons?

Because it's dragons. Plural. How would Jon embracing his role as a dragon fit that? At any point when dragons have been mentioned wrt AA has it ever been mentioned as awakening a singular dragon?

[Fire Eater]

So if they do in the next book, will that still apply?

For me the guy who is already at the Wall, and is easily the most classic fantasy type hero being the key to defeating the Others is too obvious.

That only applies if it is mentioned. It isn't obvious as no one called or referred to him as AA or TPtwP. Jon also has no flaming sword or dragons to speak of.

I've actually seen some people who think it's Dany say that it can't be Jon because that would be too obvious, which makes absolutely zero sense.

A point on GRRM's statement about literalism: Typically when we see or hear about visions that include animals or sigil items, it's symbolic, not literal. A kraken and a lion are not literally en route to Dany, a dead woman was not literally a fish, a crow was not literally on the shoulder of a man who literally had no face. We've seen this multiple times with dragons, too. Baelor Breakspear was the dead dragon who fell on Dunk. Aegon V was the dragon who hatched at Whitewalls (also, a dragon hatching at Whitewalls? Come the fuck on). I think we'll eventually learn that Aegon V tried to hatch dragons at Summerhall because of a prophecy, and the result was Rhaegar's birth. It's all been symbolic, which, wouldn't you know, tracks well with the author's own statement that he doesn't want things to happen too literally.

So why do people put that much stock in Dany literally hatching dragons?

I'll add Moqorro's vision regarding "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark." I have to yet to see anyone on this forum interpret the vision literally. It is universally agreed that he was referring to Targaryens along with fAegon.

Because it's dragons. Plural. How would Jon embracing his role as a dragon fit that? At any point when dragons have been mentioned wrt AA has it ever been mentioned as awakening a singular dragon?

Stone is often associated with hiding: Arya hiding Needle under a stone step, Sansa hiding under the alias "Alayne Stone," and Rickon hiding on Skagos which means "stone" in the Old Tongue. So a dragon being woken form stone would be learning his hidden Targaryen identity.

Melisandre, the only one who says "wake dragons from stone," talks about waking a singular dragon not dragons. It is easy to go from "dragons" to "dragons." People do that sort of thing all the time, describing a singular object plurally.

[Disputatious]

You're welcome. :cheers:

Also worth mentioning is the fact that all these people know about the prophecy including Jon (who has his fiery sword dream after hearing about AAR. But Dany knows nothing about this prophecy, about what it mean and what the requirement are. She only hear about TPTWP in passing in the HOTU, she knows nothing of AAR.

A useful point (but then I've posted a similar point, so I would agree, would I not :) )

[El Guapo]

I think that Dany is TPTWP.

It's like Aemon said, the dragons prove it. The Prince is suppose to wake dragons from stone and Dany is the only one who has done so. I just can't see GRRM introducing any more dragon eggs to be awoken. And if it's metaphorical then the person who wakes Jon from stone if he is indeed dead would be the one to consider as TPTWP. To prove that you're TPTWP you have to perform the act not have it performed on you.

Dany AGOT:

They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

Dany ACOK

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star. The old men muttered that it omened ill, but Daenerys Targaryen had seen it first on the night she had burned Khal Drogo, the night her dragons had awakened. It is the herald of my coming, she told herself as she gazed up into the night sky with wonder in her heart. The gods have sent it to show me the way.

The Jade Compendium:

“Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

Dany in Astapor

“’Drogon,’ she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. ‘Dracarys.’

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”

Dany ADWD

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.”

Stannis explaining why dragons are much better in battle than swords:

“It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?”

That about sums it up.

[IceFire125]

Stone is often associated with hiding: Arya hiding Needle under a stone step, Sansa hiding under the alias "Alayne Stone," and Rickon hiding on Skagos which means "stone" in the Old Tongue. So a dragon being woken form stone would be learning his hidden Targaryen identity.

Melisandre, the only one who says "wake dragons from stone," talks about waking a singular dragon not dragons. It is easy to go from "dragons" to "dragons." People do that sort of thing all the time, describing a singular object plurally.

Dany bend her knee after a stone turned under her feet... as if bending to a King.. but no King in sight. Because Jon has yet to be awaken and accept his heritage as the true heir to the throne, it was a foreshadowing of what is to come. ^_^

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

A stone turned under her foot. She stumbled to one knee and cried out in pain...

...

The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her...

-Daenerys X

And regarding AAR/TPTWP... isn't it ironic, that Mel sees him in her fires (when asking for glimpse of AA), but it was Jon himself that denied of such thing. And noticed that Jon denied it as TPTWP...

I have seen that in my fires.”

“Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady...

-Jon XIII

It's as if GRRM wants us to do a double take. We know Mel makes mistakes (or wrong interpretations), but when it comes to Jon, GRRM wants us to pause, and consider that Jon might be wrong about Mel's flames... in regards to him.

Also, Dany dreamt of Jon in AGOT...

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …

-Daenerys II

[ChillyPolly]

I'll add Moqorro's vision regarding "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark." I have to yet to see anyone on this forum interpret the vision literally. It is universally agreed that he was referring to Targaryens along with fAegon.

I'm apparently the lone dissenter. I interpret it literally. Though the last time I tried to articulate it, I was met with universal outrage and/or indignation.

But prophesies are deliberately vague and ambiguous. If we could be sure what they meant, they would not be ambiguous, now would they?

[El Guapo]

Also, Dany dreamt of Jon in AGOT...

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …

-Daenerys II

What? That dream is about Drogon.

(and ultimately about herself)

[IceFire125]

What? That dream is about Drogon.

(and ultimately about herself)

Sure, you can believe that.

To me, it's more than that. It's none other than, The (stone) Dragon, The Dragon awoken from Stone, or The Hidden Dragon; stone in asoiaf is often time associated with something or someone hidden.

[Arya Weinergaryen]

When I said to a tee, I mean she fits the prophecy almost perfectly based on the info we are given in the books.

1. The bleeding star heralds his coming. We are explicity told the the comet is the bleeding star. Dany sees the comet before she walks into the pyre

2. We are told that Dragonstone is the place of salt and smoke. Dany was born on DS.

3. We are told that AA will wake dragons from stone. Dany literally woke dragons from stone.

The Lightbringer portion is where she does not meet the prophecy exactly although her dragons have been descibed as a flaming sword. An argument can be made that Drogo played the part of Nissa Nissa and was a crucial component for the dragon eggs hatching.

In your estimation, are the dragons Denaerys's Lightbringer? Dunno if I'd entertained that idea before.