Hate for Tyrion & Danaerys?

[Chebyshov]

Or rather than spewing more vitriol, we could also just initiate a dialogue on why we disagree with a criticism of a character. People don't need labels; we all have our own passions and prejudices. All we can try to do is attempt to understand where the other is coming from.

[Hodor the Articulate]

The problem with discussing why people like/dislike X is, you always that one guy who says something extreme (sometimes it's the OP), which gets people all defensive. Then, of course, those people are accused of being irrational fans, unable to accepting criticism of X, and on and on it goes. In the end, no one is interested in trying to understand each other, and everyone's just arguing because they can't stand each other.

Really, we just shouldn't go near the topic at all. There's no need for it, other than to relieve our own insecurities.

How about OOJOs?

"Shut up, OOJO!"

"Ur just a OOJO!"

But that makes them sound cute!

[oldworldtech]

Dany just seems to be digging herself a hole in which she can't get out of. Trying to abolish the generations old slave trade pisses off way more people than she can possibly hope to subdue. Not to mention chaining her dragons up in a pit. When you have a power like that you can't lock it in a cage. Personally I think she would have been better off taking her unsullied and her dragons and making for westeros. On the way Varys and Illyrio would have picked up on that and got some targ supporters together. Not to mention Aegon. Seems like a waste of time and unsullied in slavers bay.

[Steelborn]

Why are we reading if not to find out what happens to Dany, Tyrion, and Jon (the three heads!?!)?

Because there are plenty of characters other than Dany, Tyrion and Jon (Has Martin confirmed they are the three heads?).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Because there are plenty of characters other than Dany, Tyrion and Jon (Has Martin confirmed they are the three heads?).

He has not.

[Steelborn]

That's what I thought.

[Hodor's Dragon]

At the same time, there's something relatively close to general agreement on this forum that they are the three main characters. A few people argue for Arya over one of them, and a smaller number of people argue for Sansa over one of them, but of those I've seen sound off on the subject, there's a big majority for T, D & J as the big 3.

[Wmarshal]

At the same time, there's something relatively close to general agreement on this forum that they are the three main characters. A few people argue for Arya over one of them, and a smaller number of people argue for Sansa over one of them, but of those I've seen sound off on the subject, there's a big majority for T, D & J as the big 3.

No, their isn't, their are some who want to force the idea that they are the main characters. TO say the majority feels this way is like saying we all took a vote and so.

[Hodor's Dragon]

No, their isn't, their are some who want to force the idea that they are the main characters. TO say the majority feels this way is like saying we all took a vote and so.

I've seen a number of threads discussing this. I'm very confident that a large majority of those who have "sounded off," as I put it, say that it's those three. I mean really, very confident. It is not close.

I can't speak for the ideas of those who haven't responded to the threads. Perhaps there is a self-selection characteristic in those who've responded.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, their isn't, their are some who want to force the idea that they are the main characters. TO say the majority feels this way is like saying we all took a vote and so.

Even if they are, acting like it's somehow invalid to dislike any or all of them simply because they seem to be the main characters, in a cast of dozens if not hundreds of other people to potentially pull for, is pretty limiting. People are allowed to invest, positively or negatively, in whatever characters they damn well please, whether those characters are the "main" ones or "Goldcloak #43." What gives someone the right to say that it's better to invest in Dany than in Arya or in Tyrion than in Stannis or in Jon instead of Jaime, just because the former triplet may comprise the "big three"? Nothing.

I've come across people who dislike Jon, Dany and Tyrion. And they're well within their right to do so.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Even if they are, acting like it's somehow invalid to dislike any or all of them simply because they seem to be the main characters, in a cast of dozens if not hundreds of other people to potentially pull for, is pretty limiting. People are allowed to invest, positively or negatively, in whatever characters they damn well please, whether those characters are the "main" ones or "Goldcloak #43." What gives someone the right to say that it's better to invest in Dany than in Arya or in Tyrion than in Stannis or in Jon instead of Jaime, just because the former triplet may comprise the "big three"? Nothing.

I've come across people who dislike Jon, Dany and Tyrion. And they're well within their right to do so.

Everybody has that right, but . . . I'll be pretty surprised if those folks enjoy the last two books as much as I'm going to enjoy them. (If they ever happen, that is.) The best way to enjoy literature is to go with the authorial flow. Whenever I find myself hating an author or hating the main character half-way through the book, I don't think I've ever found myself enjoying the rest of the read. Fortunately, that's a pretty rare experience, because I make it a rule to . . . go with the flow.

The flow here, in terms of T, D & J, is pretty clear. Tyrion is supposed to be grey but fascinating, with his bad side fully explained by his history, and Dany and Jon are supposed to be heroes with real-life flaws. Obviously, I can't prove the truth of those statements, but I feel confident enough about them to state them as facts.

I compare it to evolution. Officially, evolution is just a theory, and unprovable, but if you really observe wildlife and nature, closely, you see evolution everywhere you look. That's what reading T, D & J is like to me. I see GRRM's intent everywhere I look.

[dread pirate davos]

Personally I have moral issues with Tyrion and Dany, but that isn't why I dislike them really. I have moral problems with half the cast, it's that they aren't fun enough to not care about the moral issues anymore. To be clearer I'll use Jaime as an example. Jaime is a pretty bad guy, but I don't care because he's entertaining. It might not make a whole lot of sense, but it's how it works for me. Basically if tyrion and Dany become interesting again I might like them again.

[Wmarshal]

Everybody has that right, but . . . I'll be pretty surprised if those folks enjoy the last two books as much as I'm going to enjoy them.

If they ever happen, that is.

Saying you need to like a character to enjoy a book is ridicules. Case and point Filth, Bruce was created to be hated and people enjoyed both movie and book.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Saying you need to like a character to enjoy a book is ridicules. Case and point Filth, Bruce was created to be hated and people enjoyed both movie and book.

I don't know what Filth, Bruce is, or who Bruce is and what Filth is, but didn't you enjoy hating the character? Didn't you find him or her entertaining? I certainly don't mean you need to admire or even like every character. God, no. I'm just talking about going with the authorial flow. You yourself say the character was created to be hated, so in that case going with the flow would entail hating the character - or, to put it differently, and if you're a reader like me that doesn't really engage the hate emotion for fictional characters, enjoying how detestable the character is.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Saying you need to like a character to enjoy a book is ridicules. Case and point Filth, Bruce was created to be hated and people enjoyed both movie and book.

And it's not as if Sansa, Arya, Stannis, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, Arianne, Aegon, JonCon, Bran, Rickon, etc. will just cease existing for the next book or two. There's also the plot to think about, which I've been repeatedly told is bigger than any one character, or two or three or however many characters.

To use Dany as an example, I've actually been told that it's OK if she actually fulfills all these prophecies because whatever she does she won't be doing it alone. But then I'm also told that if I read the last books for characters other than her (or Jon, or Tyrion), I won't enjoy them as much or I'm doing it wrong or whatever. So which is it?

[dread pirate davos]

Everybody has that right, but . . . I'll be pretty surprised if those folks enjoy the last two books as much as I'm going to enjoy them. (If they ever happen, that is.) The best way to enjoy literature is to go with the authorial flow. Whenever I find myself hating an author or hating the main character half-way through the book, I don't think I've ever found myself enjoying the rest of the read. Fortunately, that's a pretty rare experience, because I make it a rule to . . . go with the flow.

The flow here, in terms of T, D & J, is pretty clear. Tyrion is supposed to be grey but fascinating, with his bad side fully explained by his history, and Dany and Jon are supposed to be heroes with real-life flaws. Obviously, I can't prove the truth of those statements, but I feel confident enough about them to state them as facts.

I compare it to evolution. Officially, evolution is just a theory, and unprovable, but if you really observe wildlife and nature, closely, you see evolution everywhere you look. That's what reading T, D & J is like to me. I see GRRM's intent everywhere I look.

I don't know that I agree with this. For instance in my literature a level we read Wuthering heights and I hated heathcliff, cathy 1 cathy 2 and the other boy but really liked Edgar unlike everyone else in class. I still enjoyed the book. Because if a author writes a real three dimensional character not everyone will like them. More to the point there is so much in WoW that I'm looking forward too that doesn't involve dany or tyrion. Eg cersie and her trial, sam at old town, Jon and stannis, Davos in skagos, jaime and the brotherhood. I could.go on.

[Bustard]

Tyrion hate started with his self-pity ADWD party, with raping women, being extremely offensive to others etc... That still doesn't mean, just like in Dany's case, that Tyrion isn't perceived as one of the most important character in the series. But that doesn't mean that he is, as of ADWD, been rather horrible human being.

Dany hatred, well, most of it, also came from ADWD and her inability to rule Meereen, with also some morally questionable decisions (torturing innocents). Dany also went step back with her entitlement talk aka "blood of dragons", her refusal to see some difficult truths and basically staying indefinitely at place no one really cares about.

So, hating character =/= thinking they are irrelevant.

Frankly, Tyrion is entitled to a pity party. I can't understand why his hardships are so vastly underestimated by posters on this forum.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

Frankly, Tyrion is entitled to a pity party. I can't understand why his hardships are so vastly underestimated by posters on this forum.

I've often noticed that many views are based off of personal experiences...

I find that I often feel the most empathy for the misunderstood characters.

the cripples (Bran)

the social pariahs (Tyrion, Davos considering his lordship)

the bastards, another kind of social pariah (Jon)

those who have done their duty and been cheated (Stannis, Quentyn)

those who have experienced real hardships (Theon post aCoK, Jaime)

those who don't quite fit into society (Arya, Asha)

those with abusive parents (Sam, Tyrion)

In some cases, its not easy to have empathy for a character if you have never known what it is like to be a social outcast, or known someone growing with an abusive parent. One of the things I like about this series is the fact that you get to hear many voices that would not often hear in high fantasy.

[Illyrio+varys forever]

I don't know why all the hate for tyrion beacause he slept with a whore in illyro home, if we are calling all the characters who slept with whores rapist than half of the people in the world should be called rapist.

[onceaskrull]

Hate is a strong word. I started to seriously dislike Tyrion around the time he murdered Shae, and it got worse from there. Some of Tyrion's thoughts toward Penny were awful, awful. I hate being so close to Tyrion and his thoughts for the same reason I hate being so close to Victarion's: they are terrible people. And if I have to read "where do whores go" one more time...

Dany, eh. Her storyline causes me pain, but I don't hate her. There is only one character that I "hate" in the sense of looking forward to his death, and that is Ramsay Snow. For everyone else, it's enough if their story's interesting enough to keep me from falling asleep.

I think a lot of "hatred" toward Dany and Tyrion is resentment of the fact that they're so very obviously author-armored and circumstances seem to bend toward keeping them alive in ways that strain plausibility in a series that is notable for its ruthlessness. For example, Tyrion's death cliffhanger was so obviously a fake out that there was no drama to it at all. By contrast, with Asha I was anxious because I thought there was at least some chance that she was really dead. So I'd imagine for some readers, it's very much resentment along the lines of "why does HE get to live when so-and-so could die at any minute?"

It's silly, but whatever. We form attachments to certain characters, and we get invested in the story. That's what's kept us hanging on for so long.