Hate for Tyrion & Danaerys?

[onceaskrull]

I don't know why all the hate for tyrion beacause he slept with a whore in illyro home, if we are calling all the characters who slept with whores rapist than half of the people in the world should be called rapist.

A slave and a prostitute are not one and the same. Tyrion is a rapist.

[The Mother of The Others]

Is it like how all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares?

How about this--- Not all slaves are prostitutes, but all prostitutes are slaves. (enslaved by a bad situation they've fallen into, or by drugs, or by their handlers/pimps, or by the delusion they're doing fine existing in a loveless condition while enduring all this McLovin. )

The side-point here being that we should also be bothered by the plight of all the earlier prostitutes in the story. We just forgot to be bothered because at the time we saw them they seemed to be playing along with it more, so it didn't stand out to us as abusive/unfortunate situations. I guess some of them like The Sailor's Wife were running their own show, which is sort of different, almost, but still is rarely healthy for someone in the long run.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I'm no psychologist, so I'm not going to say Tyrion had PTSD in ADWD, even though it appears to be the case. But clearly, he was experiencing some kind of mental disorder, because his thought processes abruptly changed between the end of ASOS and the beginning of ADWD. Hopefully, it's temporary, as is not uncommon for stress-related disorders.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know why all the hate for tyrion beacause he slept with a whore in illyro home, if we are calling all the characters who slept with whores rapist than half of the people in the world should be called rapist.

1. A slave and a whore are not interchangeable.

2. There's also the unwilling slave he raped in Volantis.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

"Tyrion and Dany hate" is overrated IMO, it's just a particular group of active and vocal posters with a high reputation that make it seem that way, those two have some of the largest support in the fandom regardless of their failures.

Exactly this. I think some posters rant about popular characters just because they can.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Honestly, what I find extremely off-putting about Tyrion is the frequency, with which he dwells on any kind of perceived or real insult to his person and his revenge for it, while at the same time completely ignoring what he does to others.

It's starts with his way to the Wall, where he thinks he has to take revenge on Benjen Stark for riding too fast for him, while Benjen and his companions had made it abundantly clear, that they had urgent business at the Wall and continues through all books.

IMO, Tyrion also has the tendency to reassign blame for slights that he has to endure to people without power, when the real culprits are too high for him to take revenge on, which one can see, when he is happy, that the owner of inn that he was arrested in gets hanged by Lannister soldiers or when he blames Sansa, the abused hostage of his family he forcibly married to size her property, for the mockery by the court he has to endure at his wedding and afterwards. (And Sansa DID kneel, just not fast enough for him)

Edited for spelling.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Honestly, what I find extremely off-putting about Tyrion is the frequency, with which he dwells on any kind of perceived or real insult to his person and his revenge for it, while at the same time completely ignoring what he does to others.

It's starts with his way to the Wall, where he thinks he has to take revenge on Benjen Stark for riding too fast for him, while Benjen and his companions had made it abuntly clear, that they had urgent business at the Wall and continues through all books.

IMO, Tyrion also has the tendency to reassigning blame for slights he has to endure to people without power, when the real culprits are too high for him to take revenge on, which one can see, when he is happy, that the owner of inn that he was arrested in gets hanged by Lannister soldiers or when he blames Sansa, the abused hostage of his family he forcibly married to size her property, for the mockery by the court he has to endure at his wedding and afterwards. (And Sansa DID kneel, just not fast enough for him)

Completely agree. I'll just add to this that Tyrion takes nearly every negative response aimed at him to simply be because he's a dwarf. This pretty much allows him to wave off any well-balanced criticism by simply thinking, "Well they only say that because I'm a dwarf." That way he gets to avoid some much-needed self-reflection, wherein he might have to acknowledge that he has other shortcomings that may actually be the cause of a lot of his treatment.

I think Tyrion is another one who benefits from perspective: He spends three books surrounded by Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle, Tywin, Jaime still in his asshole phase, etc. Most people, surrounded by that lot, would look good. Yet when you pluck him out of that situation and give him new context, he doesn't look so good.

[Dicer]

My two cents:

I think dislike for certain characters also come from a liking of their antagonists/future antagonists. So, while there are reasons to dislike a character (Don't identify with them, find them boring, find their actions horrible etc.), sometimes the dislike is also because one's own favorite character either opposes the disliked character or the disliked character is treated more favorably by the author as opposed to one's own character.

From my time on this forum, this is the trend I have noticed ( Caveat: This does not include all the fans, just some of the vocal ones on this forum). And the following are just my opinions! :

Catelyn fans tend to dislike Jon.

Jon fans tend to not like Catelyn as much either.

Sansa fans tend to dislike Dany, Jon and Tyrion. This seems to mostly be because of the importance these characters get as opposed to Sansa in the series. How dare Jon get Winterfell! It belongs to Sansa! Jon gets everything else. Let Sansa get something too! Tyrion also gets disliked because he forcibly married Sansa, and Dany is diametrically opposite to Sansa in every way and gets more book time and plot armor.

Sansa fans tend to dislike Arya and vice versa because both sisters are ideologically pitted against each other.

Dany gets a lot of criticism and dislike from Jon and Stannis fans. This is possibly because they are all three possible future antagonists or in the case of Jon and Dany, fighting for the post of AAR, PTWP etc. Also Jon fans want Jon to have Dany’s dragons and Dany fans are like no way!

Jon gets disliked by Dany fans. The reason should be obvious

Stannis is disliked by...I can't think of anyone right now. Maybe by folks who are just fed up with the Stannis the Mannis mannia!

Being on this forum has also made me feel differently about some characters, namely Sansa. Where I was indifferent towards her earlier, my time here has made me actively dislike the character. Now, I can’t resist a Sansa thread! I have noticed others feel the same way about characters like Jon, where being on the forum and interacting with Jon fans has made them dislike him as a character.

So, many factors other than just the writing for the character itself that may contribute to one’s liking or disliking a character.

[Winter's Knight]

I am not aware of any Sansa fans who dislike Dany. :worried:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am not aware of any Sansa fans who dislike Dany. :worried:

I'm a Sansa fan and I dislike Dany. :leaving:

[Mrs_Darcy]

I'm a Sansa fan and I dislike Dany. :leaving:

Me too :)

[LordStoneheart]

snip

This seems like a fun game... I know you weren't referring to me personally, but I liked looking at this list and seeing how I differ...

I love Cat and Jon. I just love Cat more.

I love Sansa and will defend any and all criticisms of her. :P

Arya has long been a favorite, but it took a reread of Game and Clash to put Cat just a bit above her. I love all three She-Wolves of Winterfell. They're amazing.

As I said, I'm a Jon fan. I'm not influenced by being a Dany fan on my opinion of him other than having the guilty pleasure Jon/Dany ship. (but not a romantic one, if that makes sense. :P)

Stannis is disliked by many a Dany fan because they do parallel each other and both have a case for "rightful ruler" of the throne (though neither is. inheritance-based rule is nonsense.) I personally dislike Stannis because of his ties to Melony who I hate with an icy cold passion and his actions after Jon Arryn's death, which I consider very selfish. But if he can get rid of Mel I'd gladly give him another chance. Plus, you're right on the mark about "Stannis the Mannis." It really cheapens the character. (plus don't quote me on this ;) but I've seen a fair amount of Dany-hating Stannis fans who are just awful... they're a minority, but they exist... case in point:

Suck it, Danyfags. Stannis is going to win.

-some YouTube idiot.

I'll also add that Catelyn and Jaime fans tend to be polar opposites.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm a Sansa fan and I dislike Dany. :leaving:

Quelle horreur!

[Faint]

I've come across people who dislike Jon, Dany and Tyrion. And they're well within their right to do so.

They are well within their rights but it also the equivalent to saying you dislike a third of every book in the series, except the fourth one.

There are reasonable limits to this kind of thinking before the whole idea simply becomes implausible. Is it really reasonable to say that you love A Song of Ice and Fire even though you hate every chapter featuring Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion?

If so, whoever thinks such a thing must really, really love the chapters that do not feature those three characters.

I, myself, find the whole concept a little ridiculous. It would be something like saying I love this hypothetical piece of three-layer cake, except, I absolutely detest one of the layers. Or, I love this triple swirl of chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice cream but I cannot abide chocolate.

And how far does this hypothetical extend? Can someone love the series but hate every chapter that is told via a Stark point-of-view character or by Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion?

Or is this one of those nonsensical phenomena were readers actually distinguish between characters they find entertaining and those they "like"? For me they are one and the same but apparently that is not the case for many a reader.

So you "hate" Tyrion-the-fictional-character but, strangely, also love to read about him.

[LordStoneheart]

So you "hate" Tyrion-the-fictional-character but, strangely, also love to read about him.

Yeah, what's wrong with that? I hate both Theon and Ramsay, but the first few Reek chapters were just wonderful.

[Mrs_Darcy]

This seems like a fun game... I know you weren't referring to me personally, but I liked looking at this list and seeing how I differ...

I love Cat and Jon. I just love Cat more.

I love Sansa and will defend any and all criticisms of her. :P

Arya has long been a favorite, but it took a reread of Game and Clash to put Cat just a bit above her. I love all three She-Wolves of Winterfell. They're amazing.

As I said, I'm a Jon fan. I'm not influenced by being a Dany fan on my opinion of him other than having the guilty pleasure Jon/Dany ship. (but not a romantic one, if that makes sense. :P)

Stannis is disliked by many a Dany fan because they do parallel each other and both have a case for "rightful ruler" of the throne (though neither is. inheritance-based rule is nonsense.) I personally dislike Stannis because of his ties to Melony who I hate with an icy cold passion and his actions after Jon Arryn's death, which I consider very selfish. But if he can get rid of Mel I'd gladly give him another chance. Plus, you're right on the mark about "Stannis the Mannis." It really cheapens the character. (plus don't quote me on this ;) but I've seen a fair amount of Dany-hating Stannis fans who are just awful... case in point:

I'll also add that Catelyn and Jaime fans tend to be polar opposites.

I think Stannis is a lot more consistent in his perception of his right to rule than Dany. Stannis thinks, that with Robert's Rebellion and all lords swearing fealty to Robert the ruling family changed from Targaryen to Baratheon. Since Cersei's children are bastards (for which IMO his proof is enough) he is the rightful heir of Robert and therefore the rightful ruler of the 7k.

Dany has a lot more inconsistencies in her legitimation as a ruler:

From the perception of him and her brother it is logical to say, that the Robert usurped the throne (even though all the lords swore fealty to him) and that Viserys is the rightful king.

But after she married Drogo and talked to Jorah, she somehow starts to think about when (not if!) her son will be king, which to me implies that she was planning on usurping her brother's rule (which would be fairly easy, given how she had all the manpower of Drogo). After her brother died and she became the rightful ruler of the Targaryen dynasty, having the rightful claim somehow became the only possible legitimation.

It got even more absurd, when she ruled Meereen by right of conquest, but at the same time thought herself as the rightful ruler of Westeros, since she had inherited it legally.

[LordStoneheart]

Mrs_Darcy, I mostly agree, but I find the "right" to rule a nonsense concept so sometimes when Stannis is on one of his "I'm the king" moods, I find him not very different from Dany. If this was real life both could just go straight off a cliff, but alas, in fantasy I love dragons... :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I, myself, find the whole concept a little ridiculous.

Which is your prerogative. Doesn't change the fact that people are entitled to read the series for whatever reason or whatever character they damn well please, regardless of whether it meets with your approval or anyone else's. If someone wants to read the series solely to see what happens to Lollys Stokeworth, who are you to stare down your nose at them?

And plenty of readers dislike characters as people but still like to read about them. Theon and Jaime immediately come to mind as examples. Likewise it's possible to like a character as a person but find their chapters plodding (common complaints about Bran and Brienne). I do like to read Tyrion's chapters because he comes across some interesting people (something you also fail to acknowledge, the possibility that supporting players in a POV make reading it worth it even if you dislike the POV character) and because I'm fascinated by his train wreck. I really don't see what's so strange or so baffling about that to warrant such snobbishness on your part.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Mrs_Darcy, I mostly agree, but I find the "right" to rule a nonsense concept so sometimes when Stannis is on one of his "I'm the king" moods, I find him not very different from Dany. If this was real life both could just go straight off a cliff, but alas, in fantasy I love dragons... :)

IMO, people have the right to rule, when the people they want to rule over mostly agree with it (like Robb Stark as King in the North), but Dany's mixing of different legitimations is a bit off-putting for me.

[SeanF]

Completely agree. I'll just add to this that Tyrion takes nearly every negative response aimed at him to simply be because he's a dwarf. This pretty much allows him to wave off any well-balanced criticism by simply thinking, "Well they only say that because I'm a dwarf." That way he gets to avoid some much-needed self-reflection, wherein he might have to acknowledge that he has other shortcomings that may actually be the cause of a lot of his treatment.

I think Tyrion is another one who benefits from perspective: He spends three books surrounded by Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle, Tywin, Jaime still in his asshole phase, etc. Most people, surrounded by that lot, would look good. Yet when you pluck him out of that situation and give him new context, he doesn't look so good.

Tyrion's in a curious position of having to live down being "The Imp" , and putting up with some very nasty treatment at the hands of his father and sister, while at the same time being one of the most powerful and privileged men in Westeros.