Hate for Tyrion & Danaerys?

[Martin Rheaume]

cuz haters gonna hate

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's easy to judge a character when such character is at his/her lowest. In the same way it's easy to judge a person who is in his/her lowest. I think that's GRRM's finest laugh: it's not about what the characters do, it's how we REACT to them. Hating Tyrion in Dance is the obvious feeling we should feel as Martin has done everything for us to do it. I suppose we shouldn't.

I had a relative who was very abusive, and directed many of his anger towards me. I was going through a hard situation because of that and I wished him dead many times. I even elaborated scenarios in my head in which I could get him killed without being discovered. When this person finally died (not by me, obviously. He got sick), we ended up in good terms and I cried him and felt bad for not being able to be close to him when it happened. I would even say I miss him and I believe that, whoever he is, he takes cares of me as he never did that while alive.

My point is that many would judge me as a monster for wishing someone to be dead or doing bad things when I was in my lowest. Because that's very easy. Tyrion had been bullied and mistreated all his life. And confuse "justification" with "explanations" is also easy. Tyrion, despite being "allowed to live" by Tywin, never had the same chances any other highborn had. Yes, he had food, clothes, money. But when that comes with a sense of "be grateful we didn't kill you", it's a very bitter taste to swallow and sometimes, one would wish not to do it. A friend of mine got pregnant very young and her family was "kind enough" to not throw her away, and for every meal, they acted like she should be grateful and owe them everything. At the end, she ran away because she couldn't handle. Tyrion didn't "run away" because he couldn't. We're not talking about a person of normal height that could even end up working in a tavern to live. He had no chances but to accept whatever Tywin wanted to give him and be grateful, even if there was a mean intention behind. And then, he cracked when they tried to kill him for something he didn't commit, and indeed, he was in trial for being a dwarf, as he had been all his life. I agree with Stannis that a good deed doesn't wash away the bad one, but is not like Tyrion decided to be down because he liked and enjoyed cruelty. He hated himself in Dance and I can understand why. He will get better, I suppose, and I'm hoping to see him improve.

[Equilibrium]

I don't hate them, I don't think I hate anyone in the series, Slynt, Mountain, some of his men, Brave Companions, bad Freys and that would be it.

But I really don't like them, Daenerys in particular, Tyrion is amusing and at least somewhat competent but Daenerys was symphatetic and likable at first but now is so irritating I tend to forget all redeeming qualities.

They are both locked trying to be just and honorable by some random standard of their's and tend to use it as a lament when they fail to mask their incompetence.

[James Arryn]

Tyron-

Hard to say I hate him as a whole, but his murder of Shae really rocked me, and he was my favourite character at the time. It was probably recoverable if in ADWD he's filled with remorse or w/e, but instead he goes on a self-pity tour of Essos.

Since then other readers have pointed out that there were earlier signs for this kind of thing that I had just missed, and upon reexamination I agree with them, so...

Now I am back liking him more than I did for some time, probably more than I'm comfortable with given what I actually think of his character now, but maybe out of habit, I kind of automatically take his perception/opinion of things as correct more than I do with most other characters, and I guess I kind of root for him still a bit. He's no longer my favourite, but he's not as low as he was for a while, and in a way I feel manipulated that this is so.

I don't hate him, but kind of wish I did, and completely understand why some do.

Dany-

She also was an early favourite. But she didn't die in a moment, but rather the death of a thousand cuts. I mostly think she's the primary victim of GRRM's plot dilemma, and his solution has been to kind of have her treadmill for a book or 3 while everything else aligned. But in the meanwhile I've just pretty much lost interest.

I think she's made good choices and bad choices, but I'm just not all that emotionally invested enough to care much about either. I hope she's revivable once Martin hits the on switch again, but all the false epiphanies and circular plot lines have probably killed my interest more than Tyrion's amoral woe is me. I am not entirely comfortable with this truth, but I think it's there.

Don't hate her at all. Don't especially get why others do. But can't be bothered to care, mostly.

[Chebyshov]

See, I really don't find much redeemable about Tyrion before ADWD either. Yes, he had one of the most messed up childhoods, and certainly has a reason for being the way that he is, but Sam came from an abusive background as well and isn't problematic in the same way. Everyone treats ADWD like an anomaly , but that's just not how I view it. It's just kind of Tyrion amplified from PTSD.

[Hodor's Dragon]

See, I really don't find much redeemable about Tyrion before ADWD either. Yes, he had one of the most messed up childhoods, and certainly has a reason for being the way that he is, but Sam came from an abusive background as well and isn't problematic in the same way. Everyone treats ADWD like an anomaly , but that's just not how I view it. It's just kind of Tyrion amplified from PTSD.

Sam had a loving mother and sisters. Plus he eventually escaped from under daddy's baleful eye. The only person in Tyrion's family who didn't want him dead was his brother, and that's nice but we all know Jaime is way too "cool" to have lavished a lot of loving sentiment on a little brother.

Tyrion's family is out to kill him right now. Multiple attempts while we're watching. Presumably these aren't their first efforts in that direction, just the straws that broke the camel's back.

Sam's dad threatened to kill him once, and Sam is still somewhat traumatized by that. How do you think he would be if this had happened over and over?

Sam also has no counterpart to the Tysha story. And there's no Joffrey-type in the Sam story.

These are not equivalent situations. They both had tough childhoods, but all tough childhoods are not identical to all other tough childhoods.

[Northernmonkey]

I find it strange that so many people have a problem with two of the book's main protagonists. GRRM clearly wants us to like them so why fight the author?

What really winds me up is people who genuinely seem to think Dany is a bad person. We can read her thoughts and she spends every waking minute thinking about how to do the right thing and free the slaves, so how can she be bad? She's so much of a do-gooder that it almost becomes boring.

[Mladen]

Has anyone occurred that the term "hate" is so loosely used around here? I mean, the greatest deal of Dany criticism is called hate because some people are not being fans. That said, I am not saying that there are no haters out there. But, for most of time, I find puzzled with what's being called hate. Let we even not go with the "Dany catch 22 argument" which I won't name, which was solution to all criticism. I have seen this so many times that the term "Dany hater" lost any meaning to me, and unless I see the post of said hater, the person in question is not hater until proven otherwise. At the end, I feel if we would take out genuine criticism from the hate bunch, we would see that there are far less haters than some would think.

Sam had a loving mother and sisters. Plus he eventually escaped from under daddy's baleful eye. The only person in Tyrion's family who didn't want him dead was his brother, and that's nice but we all know Jaime is way too "cool" to have lavished a lot of loving sentiment on a little brother.

Actually, Tyrion has spoken so many times about how loving Jaime was, then there are his uncles, all of whom I haven't seen a bit of hatred. So, it is not like Tyrion was hated by entire CR.

I find it strange that so many people have a problem with two of the book's main protagonists. GRRM clearly wants us to like them so why fight the author?

GRRM wants us to love them? Are you certain about that? And is this a new argument we can throw at people? Can I say that those that don't like Sansa are fighting the author because she is one of the main characters?

Absolutely not. Not all characters are meant to be inherently loved. I am even certain that no character is supposed to be inherently loved. Some decisions can be discussed, debated, be against them. As I said in my first post, opinion that someone is not the best person in the world doesn't preclude the opinion that the said character is pointless or unimportant. False equivalencies, people.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

Just my 2c, to the OP-

Tyrion-hate comes from him being an alcoholic and a rapist. Many readers will debate to great lengths the extent to which he is an alcoholic and a rapist, which is good, in my view. However, despite everything, he is not wholly good. Compare him (as others have done) to Sam Tarly. Sam's a good guy, even though he's a liar, an oathbreaker, and a coward, at this point in the story. He just doesn't have Tyrion's darkness (e.g. ordering a completely innocent man to death out of fear of what he might expose). So some readers will dwell on Tyrion's evils. They are put in the story for a reason. It makes his good side more appealing.

Dany in Slaver's Bay is behaving PRECISELY like a colonial power, and that is one reason for Dany-hate. Also, incompetence and Daario-bonking. Like a colonial power, Dany in ADWD is drawn into a situation where she understands nothing, has no respect for native culture, mandates radical change, and enforces it with brutality. This prompts rebellion, which like colonial powers, Dany has no idea how to actually roll back. She is trying to mold a fresh, new nation out of a very old one, and it's not working. So she gets frustrated and her WMD go nuts.

I still like both Dany and Tyrion, but they both have their evil side. However, they remain very interesting and compelling characters, and you must keep wondering how they will turn out eventually.

[Lord Damian]

Tyrion snapped and there always was a very dark side to him which seems to have taken over his persona. Like Sansa, if that marriage were to happen now. he would have raped her rather than take pitty on her when she recoilled in horror when he groped her. Good Tyrion is all but gone people. Face it. Dany, same thing, she will take the easier path, fire and blood. Ruling is too hard. Conquering with the "assets" at her disposal, much more simple and gratifying.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I find it strange that so many people have a problem with two of the book's main protagonists. GRRM clearly wants us to like them so why fight the author?

What really winds me up is people who genuinely seem to think Dany is a bad person. We can read her thoughts and she spends every waking minute thinking about how to do the right thing and free the slaves, so how can she be bad? She's so much of a do-gooder that it almost becomes boring.

Bravo.

[Chebyshov]

Sam had a loving mother and sisters. Plus he eventually escaped from under daddy's baleful eye. The only person in Tyrion's family who didn't want him dead was his brother, and that's nice but we all know Jaime is way too "cool" to have lavished a lot of loving sentiment on a little brother.

Tyrion's family is out to kill him right now. Multiple attempts while we're watching. Presumably these aren't their first efforts in that direction, just the straws that broke the camel's back.

Sam's dad threatened to kill him once, and Sam is still somewhat traumatized by that. How do you think he would be if this had happened over and over?

Sam also has no counterpart to the Tysha story. And there's no Joffrey-type in the Sam story.

These are not equivalent situations. They both had tough childhoods, but all tough childhoods are not identical to all other tough childhoods.

I don't want to turn this into a Tyrion hate thread; I've often laid out my reasons for disliking him. I also don't think it's useful to have him go toe to toe against Sam for "whose childhood would you rather have had." My point was that there's only so far you can blame his childhood abuse; we're all responsible for our own actions. It doesn't shock me that Tyrion turned out the way he did, and I certainly pity him for the life he had. But I cannot like such an entitled, mysogynistic, selfish egomaniac. And he's displayed these characteristics since AGOT, which is why I always find it curious when people talk about ADWD Tyrion as if it's another person.

[kimim]

I like Tyrion.

Dany--I'll admit I'm bitter. I loved her in the first three books. In this horribly patriarchal world (except for Dorne) she was a powerful female with FIRE BREATHING DRAGONS!!! So cool. Then it all went south, and no other female showed up to replace her.

Eh. I'm pro-Arya now. May she be the badass to kick all badasses to the curb.

[Wmarshal]

I have been reading many posts declaring hatred for Tryion and the wish that he would be killed. I personally don't understand this hatred at all and would like some clarification as to why from the haters. Many also seem to have a similar disdain for Dany. While I also do not understand this completely, she is much less likable than Tyrion who is perhaps the most entertaining character in the books, so it makes a little more sense.

Why all the hate for two of the characters who look to have the biggest influence on the entire series of books? Why are we reading if not to find out what happens to Dany, Tyrion, and Jon (the three heads!?!)? Why all the hate?

I have no hate for Dany, Danystans have shown me she is more a ignorant child that really should not rule a puppy then a murderous bitch.

Tyrion on the other hand is a rapist monster who armed a horde of savages to rape and butcher in the Vale. Fuck him.

[Mikkel]

What character doesn't get hated?

Davos, for one. I mean there have been a few (painfully obvious) trolling threads, but nothing serious. There's also quite a few that are mostly (say, 98% or more) viewed positively, but have a few detractors, such as Ned Stark.

Brienne is another I haven't seen much hate for, the main criticism is usually the (to some) relative boredom of the Riverlands travelogue, which isn't aimed at the character itself.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

I have been reading many posts declaring hatred for Tryion and the wish that he would be killed. I personally don't understand this hatred at all and would like some clarification as to why from the haters. Many also seem to have a similar disdain for Dany. While I also do not understand this completely, she is much less likable than Tyrion who is perhaps the most entertaining character in the books, so it makes a little more sense.

Why all the hate for two of the characters who look to have the biggest influence on the entire series of books? Why are we reading if not to find out what happens to Dany, Tyrion, and Jon (the three heads!?!)? Why all the hate?

Now you've done it.

Brace yourself for the haters.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I was torn with Tyrion. I switched between liking him and disliking him until I finally stuck with dislike midway through ASOS. I don't hate him irrationally, I just think he's a gross person. I'm open to the possibility of him redeeming himself in the future.

I don't hate Dany, either, I just feel sort of meh about her. I think most people rightfully question her ragey decisions. I don't think that's hate, though. What's more confusing is people who try to defend her torturing the wine-seller's daughters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's a "casual nastiness" to Tyrion (Lummel's words) that Dany doesn't share. You see it as far back as AGOT when he laughs inwardly at finding his father has hanged Masha Heddle, who bore no responsibility for his arrest, or when he's clearly indifferent to the death of his servant on the mountain road.

Dany's chief fault is an angry self-righteous cruelty.

I think this is a fair and accurate description. Lummel's description of Tyrion in particular is extremely fitting.

Small wonder though that the OP is baffled as to where criticism of Dany and Tyrion comes from if they genuinely don't recall Dany committing torture and Tyrion committing rape.

[King Tyrion I]

I neither hate Dany nor Tyrion. I hate no character because I find it difficult to hate "characters" however well-written the character may be. It's still a fictional person.

As for Tyrion's downward spiral: one really has to go down in order to rise again. And he goes down. Becomes a slave - he's still a Lord, mind you. So, he has great potential to be on the top again and one of the major players in the game of thrones.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I find it strange that so many people have a problem with two of the book's main protagonists. GRRM clearly wants us to like them so why fight the author?

This is just bunk, sorry to be blunt. Show me an author who's written a character that EVERYONE likes and I'll show you a character who's a boring, cardboard cutout pile of bland inoffensiveness. GRRM wrote them the way he wrote them and people react how they react. Implying that there's a "wrong" way to view these characters is borderline offensive.