What was Olenna's plan for Sansa?

[JonSnow4President]

First of all it would have been far easier to fill her in after if needed, Sansa already has a reputation, besides why let one more person into the plot than nessecary.

Second, please provide a source.

Post #23

[oursisthefury69]

It's been mentioned that Littlefinger stole away Sansa after Joffrey's death from the queen of thorns.

books read?

[Colonel Green]

First of all it would have been far easier to fill her in after if needed

No it wouldn't. She would be arrested and put in detention if Plan B ended up happening. Not only would getting access to her quite likely be impossible, but they'd have no control over what she would have said until they actually saw her.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Well, the Tyrells want as much power as they can get in this new regime. I think before Tywin was informed of the plot, Olenna planned for Sansa to be married to Willas and then have the Heir to Highgarden claim Winterfell in Sansa's name. Willas would be Lord of Highgarden and Lord of Winterfell in the future, and his second son would inherit the North under the Stark name. Or if the Young Wolf somehow managed to beat the Lannisters, then they would have a bargaining chip to ensure their safety and an opportunity to secure an important alliance with the northern kingdom.

I agree that the plan to poison Joffrey was meant to look like he was actually choking. I do not think the Tyrells knew that Littlefinger would help Sansa escape.

[John Suburbs]

Except Sansa hadn't been coached to say any of that, so how could they plan on that?

Again, GRRM has explicitly said that Sansa was the backup plan to take the fall if the "choking" story didn't fly. That's why she's the one wearing the hairnet, which is pointless otherwise.

GRRM has never said anything explicitly. Even the quote you posted is ambiguity as an art form with everything couched within what "the careful reader" would conclude.

The reason they used the hairnet was because that is where the poison was, handed to Sansa right after the Blackwater and long before all the details of the plot were worked out. Sansa is just too valuable for all concerned to set her up as a fall guy.

As for SSMs, my favorite is this one:

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

So basically, he is saying that nothing in an SSM should be taken as canon because he could change his mind at any time.

[messem]

The reason they used the hairnet was because that is where the poison was, handed to Sansa right after the Blackwater and long before all the details of the plot were worked out. Sansa is just too valuable for all concerned to set her up as a fall guy.

The hairnet is totally pointless unless you take it as a "proof" for Sansa's guilt. Everybody, literally everybody, could have carried a little bit of poison in his pockets. There is absolutely no need to hide it in the hairnet.

[Colonel Green]

The reason they used the hairnet was because that is where the poison was, handed to Sansa right after the Blackwater and long before all the details of the plot were worked out.

That's nonsensical. There's no reason to just give her poison for no reason, let alone give her all the poison you have (which is the only way the reliance of the hairnet in the scheme makes sense). What if she subsequently changes her mind and you can't get it back?

Sansa is just too valuable for all concerned to set her up as a fall guy.

Then why was she given the poison, which could never serve any purpose other than incriminating her?

As for SSMs, my favorite is this one:

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

So basically, he is saying that nothing in an SSM should be taken as canon because he could change his mind at any time.

GRRM can (and has) revised backstory, etc. He is not going to "change his mind" about vital plot details at this stage.

[RoamingRonin]

Sansa would be both a hostage and ward making the Tyrells not-quite-enemies and not-quite-allies of the Starks. It would have been great move for the Tyrells.

[Lord Damian]

what if the Tyrell/littlefinger plan is still in play but on hold, because Tyrion got away? Lets face it, Sansa's virtue and her general status is on hold as tyrion is still alive and she is wanted for murder. there must be serious questions as to where Sansa is but the Tyrells, if anyone, may know exactly where she is, with littlefinger. What if the harry the heir thing is a ruse to get Sansa to marry Willas anyway but littlefinger does not want that to get out just yet? Now, I think she will be married to Aegon Vi for he would be the best possbie match for any woman of her birth, especially if he is believed a shoe in to win the iron throne.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Sansa would be both a hostage and ward making the Tyrells not-quite-enemies and not-quite-allies of the Starks. It would have been great move for the Tyrells.

If she's married to Willas she's not a ward. Hostage sure, but not a ward.

[Lord Damian]

From the Imp to the Gimp

[Colonel Green]

What if the harry the heir thing is a ruse to get Sansa to marry Willas anyway but littlefinger does not want that to get out just yet?

Er, why?

Sansa could never marry Willas after the Purple Wedding happened, regardless of whether Tyrion was alive or not. She's a wanted murderer.

[John Suburbs]

The hairnet is totally pointless unless you take it as a "proof" for Sansa's guilt. Everybody, literally everybody, could have carried a little bit of poison in his pockets. There is absolutely no need to hide it in the hairnet.

Perhaps it was the only poison he had. It is very rare and very costly. The hairnet was given to Sansa early in the game before LF knew exactly what he was going to do with it. That would fit with his MO of putting all the pieces in place even if the plan is not fully worked out, ie, the Kettleblacks.

That's nonsensical. There's no reason to just give her poison for no reason, let alone give her all the poison you have (which is the only way the reliance of the hairnet in the scheme makes sense). What if she subsequently changes her mind and you can't get it back?

Then why was she given the poison, which could never serve any purpose other than incriminating her?

GRRM can (and has) revised backstory, etc. He is not going to "change his mind" about vital plot details at this stage.

It wasn't given to her for no reason. It was given to her to provide cover for her escape. Giving it to anyone else runs the risk of ruining the plan. Much smarter to keep the two key elements together to make sure they are both where they need to be in order to carry out the mission.

She was going to be incriminated no matter what. The king (or Tyrion, actually, because he was the real target for the poison) is dead and Sansa has vanished. Hairnet or no hairnet, she is the Number 1 suspect.

This is not a vital plot detail. No matter who did what or who planned what or how it was done, the result is the same: Joffrey is dead, Tyrion is accused and Sansa is in the veil.

[Colonel Green]

Perhaps it was the only poison he had. It is very rare and very costly. The hairnet was given to Sansa early in the game before LF knew exactly what he was going to do with it. That would fit with his MO of putting all the pieces in place even if the plan is not fully worked out, ie, the Kettleblacks.

No, that doesn't fit Littlefinger's MO, because there's no reason for Sansa to wear the hairnet unless you expect her to be caught with it (which is what the Tyrells, but not Littlefinger, thought would happen).

It wasn't given to her for no reason. It was given to her to provide cover for her escape. Giving it to anyone else runs the risk of ruining the plan. Much smarter to keep the two key elements together to make sure they are both where they need to be in order to carry out the mission.

That's clearly not true. Free of concerns about framing her while still present, the smartest and most logical thing is for the poison to be given and retained by the person who will use it. The hairnet is an unnecessary additional step, one that introduces numerous potential complications, unless your goal is to frame Sansa with it. The hairnet does not provide "cover for her escape".

She was going to be incriminated no matter what.

If you know she's going to escape, which Littlefinger does, but the Tyrells don't. Hence, the hairnet.

This is not a vital plot detail. No matter who did what or who planned what or how it was done, the result is the same: Joffrey is dead, Tyrion is accused and Sansa is in the veil.

Yes, it is a vital plot detail, because it's a major plot in the book, with numerous elements and explanatory details included. GRRM is not going to go to all that work to include stuff, and then completely revise it (which is very different from casual answers about backstory or customs, or more detailed backstory about the far past that has nevertheless not actually been employed in the novels.

[unitron]

The hairnet is totally pointless unless you take it as a "proof" for Sansa's guilt. Everybody, literally everybody, could have carried a little bit of poison in his pockets. There is absolutely no need to hide it in the hairnet.

Was there ever any poison in the hairnet?

Or just stones that looked like the Strangler crystals, and an empty socket that everyone would assume had held a crystal that looked a lot like the other, harmless stones?

It's not like Olenna was in danger of being strip searched on the way into the wedding dinner, so Sansa doesn't actually have to carry any poison into the hall, she just has to do something which can be mistaken for having done so.

Because otherwise we either have a hairnet full of a lot more poison than is needed, or Olenna has to be able to quickly pick out the one stone that's actually a strangler crystal.

But if there's no poison, then Olenna only need pop any one stone loose.

[messem]

Was there ever any poison in the hairnet?

I think there still is. If Sansa had to take the blame then you would have to incriminate her somehow. A damaged hairnet isn't enough for that but a damaged hairnet which still holds a poison crystal is.

btw: A question pops up. Where is this damaged hairnet?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Was there ever any poison in the hairnet?

Or just stones that looked like the Strangler crystals, and an empty socket that everyone would assume had held a crystal that looked a lot like the other, harmless stones?

It's not like Olenna was in danger of being strip searched on the way into the wedding dinner, so Sansa doesn't actually have to carry any poison into the hall, she just has to do something which can be mistaken for having done so.

Because otherwise we either have a hairnet full of a lot more poison than is needed, or Olenna has to be able to quickly pick out the one stone that's actually a strangler crystal.

But if there's no poison, then Olenna only need pop any one stone loose.

Yes...

Sansa lifted the net for a closer look. There was a dark smudge in the silver socket where the stone had fallen out.

Sansa V, Storm

[Lion Of The Night]

Yes...

Sansa V, Storm

That doesn't really prove anything other than that there is a dark smudge. It could be an adhesive, it could be dirt, it very well be a red herring to make us think that.

There was only a few people possible for being blamed, the people on the dias, or the cook staff. The first place anyone would look to is the staff, as they are tjr closest to the food. If they don't find anyone there, they would look to the guests, of all the people on the table, Tyrion would be the first because of his past history with Joffrey.

It makes more sense to think that what happened wasnt the whole plan. I believe that the Tyrells thought there would be more time to enact an escape for Sansa, as people are investigating the murder. Perhaps only LF had anticipated Cersei's reaction and got Sansa out first.

[Lost Melnibonean]

That doesn't really prove anything other than that there is a dark smudge. It could be an adhesive, it could be dirt, it very well be a red herring to make us think that.

There was only a few people possible for being blamed, the people on the dias, or the cook staff. The first place anyone would look to is the staff, as they are tjr closest to the food. If they don't find anyone there, they would look to the guests, of all the people on the table, Tyrion would be the first because of his past history with Joffrey.

It makes more sense to think that what happened wasnt the whole plan. I believe that the Tyrells thought there would be more time to enact an escape for Sansa, as people are investigating the murder. Perhaps only LF had anticipated Cersei's reaction and got Sansa out first.

I think it's pretty clear what the George is telling us. But there's no reason to rule oit other possibilities. I say speculate away! Maybe it'll lead to a theory like R+L=J. Just watch out for corn codes. :)

[unitron]

That doesn't really prove anything other than that there is a dark smudge. It could be an adhesive, it could be dirt, it very well be a red herring to make us think that.

There was only a few people possible for being blamed, the people on the dias, or the cook staff. The first place anyone would look to is the staff, as they are tjr closest to the food. If they don't find anyone there, they would look to the guests, of all the people on the table, Tyrion would be the first because of his past history with Joffrey.

It makes more sense to think that what happened wasnt the whole plan. I believe that the Tyrells thought there would be more time to enact an escape for Sansa, as people are investigating the murder. Perhaps only LF had anticipated Cersei's reaction and got Sansa out first.

The way the color of the wine kept changing, it might even be a purple herring. :D