Atlas of Ice and Fire: The Known World (Some labels added)

[Waters Gate]

@Free Northman reborn

All i'm really doing is trying to addapt the Asoiaf map to that of a globe because a flat map obviously has to have certain "errors" and addapting it to a globe shape might give us certain insights.

Your mistake is to think that longitude exists in the Ice and Fire world. There is no need to try and calculate how many degrees of longitude the North covers compared to Dorne. All that matters is the number of miles that the North covers compared to Dorne.

Indeed, from the perspective of someone in the Asoiaf world, longitude's wouldn't exist, it not being known how big the world is or even knowing if its round. In medieval times lots of people thought the world to be flat.

It's all important because we are used with GRRM that he portray's what is happening from the viewpoints of people in the world, and even then these people might have a certain bias which would misrepresent the situation. A good ex. of that was the maesters from who we have the story of the Dance of Dragons.

Indeed for people in the Asoiaf world a few other things would matter, these being that relative distances for what concerns Westeros would be correct when represented on the map, and that say Dorne would be as south from the North as it appears on the map. if Dorne would not be south of the North, then people would deffinatly notice and ask questions about the correctness of their map. The Westerosi have a north star, basicly a star where the north is practicly always oriented towards, and it would seem that a dornish sailer should be able to sail to the north by sailing towards that star.

But if the Westerosi have drawn the map of their world, then obviously they will have made errors at some point, simply by trying to represent the world on a flat map. Things have to get stretched somewhere, and likely that stretching is happening less around Westeros for what regards the map and more around Essos. A flat map on that sclae simply cannot give an acurate representation of directions bewteen all places because of distortion.

For what regards practicle matters. A person in Ashai might think that in order go to Ibben overland they should go in a northwestern direction, while the truth might be actually that they really should go into a northeastern direction to go to Ibben. For us reader it might be interresting to consider where the Westerosi were likely wrong when they drew this map, and how things are in reality when its put on a globe.

And imho it needs further discussion. The alternative's ive posted deffinatly imho get closer to the reality of the world, but there are still errors because its difficult to distort a map correctly with graphical tools and fit it neatly in a globe shape.

One thing for ex. to consider is: How do Westerosi know east and West? One would think that they would look to sunrise and sunset for ex. to determine that, but even then the sun is only rises in the exact east like once a year iirc, the earth doesn't rotate on the same plane as the sun therefore the sun might rise somewhat more southeast depending on where you are on the world. I think we can have quite a discussion of how exact we can expect Westerosi navigators and cartographers to be when determining direction and distance. It might just be so for ex. that while we thing that Ashai is East of Dorne roughly, that actually it's Southeast of it. A flat map as provided to us by GRRM just cannot be right, or the world would actually have to be flat.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Waters gate (sorry, my quote function isn't working)

Agreed.

But I suspect that Martin simply didn't consider this issue when he first drew the map. For example, 300 miles on the flat map - as per the length of the Wall - is almost exactly the same as 300 miles on the map from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell.

And Martin then went on to say that we can use the Wall to measure distances anywhere on the map.

And yet, we haven't yet got indications that areas that are depicted on the flat map as being directly North of one another, are in fact much farther east or west from one another than was initially depicted.

So it seems it is a magical map, where both distances and North-South alignments are all exactly as depicted on the flat map. Which obviously is not possible on a globe. So the answer, in short, is magic. (Meaning Martin forgot to consider it in the beginning).

[Mychel_Redfort]

One thing for ex. to consider is: How do Westerosi know east and West? One would think that they would look to sunrise and sunset for ex. to determine that, but even then the sun is only rises in the exact east like once a year iirc, the earth doesn't rotate on the same plane as the sun therefore the sun might rise somewhat more southeast depending on where you are on the world. I think we can have quite a discussion of how exact we can expect Westerosi navigators and cartographers to be when determining direction and distance. It might just be so for ex. that while we thing that Ashai is East of Dorne roughly, that actually it's Southeast of it. A flat map as provided to us by GRRM just cannot be right, or the world would actually have to be flat.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The Land of Ice and Fire provided a full flat map of the Known World. I agree that it can't be used for measuring great distances (though it's good for short ones), but on a flat map, latitudes and longitudes are accurate, and so the directions are correct. If you follow a meridian up, you will go North. If you follow a line of latitude right, you will go East.

[Waters Gate]

But I suspect that Martin simply didn't consider this issue when he first drew the map. For example, 300 miles on the flat map - as per the length of the Wall - is almost exactly the same as 300 miles on the map from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell.

I suspect differently:

The artic circle is significantly less wide than the equator of a globe. On earth the equator is roughly 25.000 miles long, wheras the pole circle which is at 66 degrees in the north is about 10.000 miles acros. Obviously, the world is significantly less wide around the poles than around the equator. this also means its easier to "round the world" with a ship around the artic circles than around the equator, providing you have a clear passage.

We know roughly how big the map is that we are given, taking it from this site:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/03/how-big-is-the-planet-that-westeros-is-on

Current understanding of Westeros and its size puts the distance between the Wall and the south coast of Dorne at 3000 miles (or 1000 leagues). Now, thanks to the revelation of the Known World map, some comparison to Earth, and some speculation, we can try and pin down just how big the planet is.

Let’s begin, using a handy tape measure and the real size map of the Known World. (Which is, of course, hanging on my wall at home because OOH, PRETTY.)

In inches, the distance from the wall to the south coast of Dorne is a very convenient 12, making each inch equivalent to 250 miles. The Known World map is 2 feet and 11 inches wide, minus the ornamental borders, totaling 8750 miles from east to west and 5750 miles from north to south.

Note how wide the Asoiaf map is supposed to be. 8750 miles is not to far from the 10.000 miles that the world would be wide around the artic circle if it had earths size. Point being that if the Westerosi navigated as much east along the north than they did along the equator, then likely they almost rounded the world around the north, whereas they have only just begun exploring everything that is around the equator. now you might ask, what does this have to do with wheter or not Martin might have been just wrong? Well it follows from the fact that the ironborn lord of lonely light, of house Farwynd afaik, tends to believe that he can get to Essos by Sailing west. it's something that is easily discarded in the books, as if he were a wannabee columbus or Leif Erikson. Actually the vikings for ex. had it easier to go to the America's simply because the distance between Europe and America is less wide along the north, and granted thee were a few islands along the way but still. And the farwynds might very well b correct, given that we know much of the north of Essos and that there seems to be clear sailing along that coast along the entire north.

You also have Quaithe's message to Daenarys with the "to go west you must go east" stuff.

My oppinion is that martin had considered, before drawing a map, that medieval people were notoriously bad at drawing maps, and that he should give a faulty interpretation of their world for the reader, of which certain parts in the text might hive hint to. Just like martin considered that medieval writers were baised and would likely give some misrepresentations besides a general kernal of truth.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The Land of Ice and Fire provided a full flat map of the Known World. I agree that it can't be used for measuring great distances (though it's good for short ones), but on a flat map, latitudes and longitudes are accurate, and so the directions are correct. If you follow a meridian up, you will go North. If you follow a line of latitude right, you will go East.

IF the map is distorted towards the north to compensate for it yes, then youre absolutly correct. On a flat map, the north must appear larger than it is versus the equatorial region. A flat map of our world wil make Alaska or north America appear much larger than it is versus say Africa around the Sahara.

The thing is, we could consider that the map we are given is already such a distorted and stretched out map. But that would have inplications too. In that case, the north would actually in reality be smaller than it appears on the map we are given, and regions around the equator like Dorne or the Summer islands would infact be much larger. It might be that while Dorne appears to be smaller in landmass than the north on the Asoiaf map, that its actually quite a lot larger than it in pure landmass.

Somewhere the flat map must be a wrong one. Either its stretched out to compensate for lattitude's and size's of area's are in reallity different than what they appear to be on the map, or the relative sizes on the map of places in Westeros are correct but then the grid would need to be off. somehow.

[Nictarion]

Does Stannis know his lawyer spends so much time making maps?

[LordStoneheart]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1206/

hehe... you did exactly what he said not to do in that interview...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1. Known World, 298 AL, with nations: http://i.imgur.com/WL9wwbk.png

2. Known World, 20,000 BAL: http://i.imgur.com/PtDmATV.png

3. Known World, 600 BAL: Not yet made

4. Trade routes of the Known World: Not yet made

5. Extent of Slavery: Not yet made

AL = AC (after Conquest)

BAL = BC (Before Conquest)

;)

[Mychel_Redfort]

The thing is, we could consider that the map we are given is already such a distorted and stretched out map. But that would have inplications too. In that case, the north would actually in reality be smaller than it appears on the map we are given, and regions around the equator like Dorne or the Summer islands would infact be much larger. It might be that while Dorne appears to be smaller in landmass than the north on the Asoiaf map, that its actually quite a lot larger than it in pure landmass.

I think the differences are mostly notable near the poles. We don't know exactly where is placed the pole circle, probably near the Wall. South of it, the distortions in landmass exist, but can't be significant.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The polar circle, based on real world vegetation equivalence, has to be at the northern edge of the Haunted Forest, about 600 miles North of the Wall.

[Waters Gate]

I think the differences are mostly notable near the poles. We don't know exactly where is placed the pole circle, probably near the Wall. South of it, the distortions in landmass exist, but can't be significant.

Imho the distortions must be very significant, or the asoiaf map would really have to span a very small fraction of the worlds surface, but it should be atleast 1/4th to 1/5th of the total worlds landmass we see here. Another thing though is that we seem to have a map that stretches from roughly the north to the equator, which should mean hughe relative distortion between north and south, as around the polar circle our world is only 10.000 miles wide and aroudn the equator 25.000 miles. I made two example's earielr on how you could translate the flat map to a globe shape, even then it very crude but more meant to give an idea:

http://users.telenet.be/Pieterv/rond2.png

This was the example i used if you would need to have correct longtitude's. On a flat map the longitude's are everywhere as wide and the north is stretched out more, on a globe shape the longitutde's become less wide as you go more north and they intersect afcourse at the pole. Afcourse in this map because of addapting the map the shouth has become much larger vis a the north than it was on the flat map. But for longitude's to correspond correctly with what they would be on a flat map with a stretched north, this would then be the reality of actual relative sizes. If this addaptation for a globe map is correct, then indeed Dorne or say the Summer islands are much larger than we would have thought from the flat map, compared to say the north.

this is the other way to do it:

http://users.telenet.be/Pieterv/rond.png

The thing with this is that here you don't have the change of size of the north or Dorne for ex. Dorne on this globe shape is just as large compared to the north as it would be on the flat map, and so then the flat map would represent real distances. However, here longitude's are actually different than they would have been on the flat map. Likely however the meridian is in Westeros, atleast for Westerosi, possibly somewhere trought the middle of the continent. But as you move east to essos the longitude lines should angle more.

If we consider that the size of the map is about 8750x5750 miles rounded, then it woulkd ppare to me that for what regards the north towards the artic circle it might cover practicly the whole world as the world is only about 10.000 miles across there, whereas as if the sotuhern part of the map is the equator then 8750 miles there is only about 1/3rd of the equator region. Putting the meridian in westeros, it would mean a serious deviation for Asshai versus the northeastern part of the Asoiaf map.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Waters Gate

You overestimate the northerly latitude of Westeros. With the Wall at around 60 degrees North latitude, the Iron Isles would be about 1000 miles South of that. In our world, that would be around 45 degrees North latitude.

At which point the world is around 18,000 miles in circumference. Meaning if you subtract the 8750 miles covered by the map from that, it would still leave around 9000 miles of uncharted Sunset Sea between the Lord of Lonely light and the Far East of Essos.

[Waters Gate]

Waters Gate

You overestimate the northerly latitude of Westeros. With the Wall at around 60 degrees North latitude, the Iron Isles would be about 1000 miles South of that. In our world, that would be around 45 degrees North latitude.

At which point the world is around 18,000 miles in circumference. Meaning 8750 miles would still leave around 9000 miles between the Lord of Lonely light and the Far East of Essos.

I agree with that, absolutly, and thx btw for making that calculation for me. ;)

I do find it interesting though that lonely light is about on the same lattitude as the northeastern part of the Essos landmass on the map.

I'm trying to work on a projection addapted map of the world and certainly it was important for me to calculate the distance between lonely light and that northeastern tip.

I have to note though: Is lonely light at 45 degrees or might it be a tad more north? the reason for this is that with a flat map, stretch doesn't only happen in width but might also happen in height. to bring back the example's of our world:

flat map:

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images-mow/world-map.jpg

note how high the area above the artic circle is here, and that relative to how much height there is left towards the equator. Now comare that with the map below:

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/download/maps/political-world-map-big.gif

Another thing: What determine's the location of the artic circle? Is that determined by Axial tilt?

That said, in itself i'm quite happy with the calculation you made, it serves to get an impression of distances there. But i do wonder if likely map deformation might mean that lonely light might be either more south or north than it appears to be, whcih afcourse could go both ways for what regards the distances on the other side then.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Martin has commented that the lands beyond the Wall approach Canada in size.

The books have also expressly told us that the distance (as the raven flies) between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell is 300 miles. On the map, that distance matches almost exactly the length of the Wall, which also happens to be 300 miles in length.

So the scale does not appear to change as one moves South.

To corroborate that, when Martin was asked about whether the North's population is also as low as Dorne's, his answer was that although the North is also sparsely populated, it is MUCH bigger than Dorne.

So again, if we were not looking at a flat map, depicting real distances, Dorne would be as big or bigger than the North, which Martin has clearly refuted himself.

Finally, Martin himself has stated that we can use the Wall as an approximate scale bar for the entire Westeros. All of that makes it pretty clear to me that Westeros is indeed a flat map, with actual distances indicated, rather than actual longitudes.

So if we use the Wall as a scale bar, the Iron Isles are indeed more or less 1000 miles South of the Wall (guestimate from memory, as I don't have the map in front of me).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Martin has commented that the lands beyond the Wall approach Canada in size.

The books have also expressly told us that the distance (as the raven flies) between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell is 300 miles. On the map, that distance matches almost exactly the length of the Wall, which also happens to be 300 miles in length.

So the scale does not appear to change as one moves South.

To corroborate that, when Martin was asked about whether the North's population is also as low as Dorne's, his answer was that although the North is also sparsely populated, it is MUCH bigger than Dorne.

So again, if we were not looking at a flat map, depicting real distances, Dorne would be as big or bigger than the North, which Martin has clearly refuted himself.

Finally, Martin himself has stated that we can use the Wall as an approximate scale bar for the entire Westeros. All of that makes it pretty clear to me that Westeros is indeed a flat map, with actual distances indicated, rather than actual longitudes.

So if we use the Wall as a scale bar, the Iron Isles are indeed more or less 1000 miles South of the Wall (guestimate from memory, as I don't have the map in front of me).

Would you happen to have the source for that?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Rhaenys

I don't, unfortunately. I recall reading about it in the answers from some book signing. But there has been more than one reference to this, attributed to Martin. At one time he said it was Greenland sized. And then it was later reported that he revised that to Canada sized.

Maybe someone else can assist us with the exact quote.

The point is, there is a heck of a lot of territory between the Wall and the North Pole.

Even if it is just Greenland sized, that is pretty much 90% the size of the North itself. Now imagine the entire North fitting in above the Wall. Only narrower, and therefore stretching a greater distance North to South. You are looking at around 2000 miles between the Wall and the North Pole.

[Waters Gate]

Martin has commented that the lands beyond the Wall approach Canada in size.

The books have also expressly told us that the distance (as the raven flies) between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell is 300 miles. On the map, that distance matches almost exactly the length of the Wall, which also happens to be 300 miles in length.

So the scale does not appear to change as one moves South.

To corroborate that, when Martin was asked about whether the North's population is also as low as Dorne's, his answer was that although the North is also sparsely populated, it is MUCH bigger than Dorne.

So again, if we were not looking at a flat map, depicting real distances, Dorne would be as big or bigger than the North, which Martin has clearly refuted himself.

Finally, Martin himself has stated that we can use the Wall as an approximate scale bar for the entire Westeros. All of that makes it pretty clear to me that Westeros is indeed a flat map, with actual distances indicated, rather than actual longitudes.

So if we use the Wall as a scale bar, the Iron Isles are indeed more or less 1000 miles South of the Wall (guestimate from memory, as I don't have the map in front of me).

Its a good calculation. Mind you, the Asoiaf doesn't exactly mark its artic circle, the equator neither for that matter and it leaves us guessing at its location. On our world, the artic circle is at 66 degrees because of the axial tilt of about 23.4 degrees. If you give the world that Westeros is on a slighter axial tilt, then it's article circle might fall at say 75 to 80 degrees.

The Westerosi have a pole star, which means that their true north stays relativly fixed, and kinda exclude's a very large axial tilt, but still makes a slighter tilt quite possible.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Its a good calculation. Mind you, the Asoiaf doesn't exactly mark its artic circle, the equator neither for that matter and it leaves us guessing at its location. On our world, the artic circle is at 66 degrees because of the axial tilt of about 23.4 degrees. If you give the world that Westeros is on a slighter axial tilt, then it's article circle might fall at say 75 to 80 degrees.

The Westerosi have a pole star, which means that their true north stays relativly fixed, and kinda exclude's a very large axial tilt, but still makes a slighter tilt quite possible.

Yet the jungle type flora you would expect in the equatorial regions don't occur in Dorne or Slavers Bay, but only down in Sothoryos. To me this quite clearly places the equator in the extreme South of the known world map. South of the Summer Isles, in fact.

Also, Martins reference to the large territory between the Wall and the North Pole in my view refutes the idea of a different axial tilt, as a smaller arctic circle would not leave enough space above the treeline to fit in the required land area.

[messem]

Why does it matter where the Arctic circle is? There is no indication they have any at all. Mind, the axial tilt creates our seasons. It is rather clear that their season are based on something completely different. Planetos might lack any tilt.

[Waters Gate]

Why does it matter where the Arctic circle is? There is no indication they have any at all. Mind, the axial tilt creates our seasons. It is rather clear that their season are based on something completely different. Planetos might lack any tilt.

Distances and magnitude of distortion. Although i could draw different round world maps for different interpretations of its location and that of the equator. A lack of much axial tilt would actually reinorce my point that lord Farwynd might easily travel to Essos going in an western direction from lonely light. Depending on where you put the artic circle, lord farwynds voyage might become longer, or much shorter indeed. It might also have implications for how far Daenarys has to voyage in either direction to take the shortest route to the wall or Westeros.

It is however likely that the axial tilt of the planet is not too large, given that the Westerosi have a reliable north star, its unlikely to have a larger tilt than earth.

[ummester]

Why does it matter where the Arctic circle is? There is no indication they have any at all. Mind, the axial tilt creates our seasons. It is rather clear that their season are based on something completely different. Planetos might lack any tilt.

Considering it has totally illogical Seasons, I think the axial tilt is the least of Planetos' concerns.

The efforts that have gone into some of the maps and articles in this thread are phenomenal (I'm sure much more than GRRM has ever thought about it and on a much more technical level).

However, GRRM has promised a magical and not scientific(read logical) explanation for the weather on Planetos. At this stage it remains as likely that Planetos does exist inside the eye of a blue eyed giant as it is a spherical body in space.