Scklar Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Neds lack of political awareness led to his OWN downfall, but not the downfall of House Stark, the blame for that lies more so with Robb, but chiefly with forces opposed to him for one reason or another. (Frey with his wounded pride, Tywin with his direct opposition in war, Bolton with his own ambitions). Ned left 5 children, a wife, a strong homeland and a strong keep to continue the name of Stark. Im not anti Tywin here at all but im just giving my opinion on him. He didnt love his children, only his legacy. this cold approach led his children (atleast one of which may be bastard born). he used them purely for political purposes and ultimately caused all three to not know whether they admired, feared or resented him, but none of them loved him, and ironically enough for Tywins legacy, its greatest hope of surviving in my opinion lies with Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a bastard with a harp Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 The answer will always be the guy who was killed by his own son while taking a shit. close thread please, and give Casterly Rock to Apple Martini as a reward for such and epic comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 If you asked Jon, Sansa, Robb, Bran, Arya and Rickon if they were willing to change places, I bet they would say no. At least Tyrion I suppose would be tempted to switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 If you asked Jon, Sansa, Robb, Bran, Arya and Rickon if they were willing to change places, I bet they would say no. At least Tyrion I suppose would be tempted to switch. Pretty sure Robb would gladly trade places with the living. Cersei, Jaime and even Tyrion have had relatively comfortable lives compared to Arya, Bran, Sansa and presumably Rickon shorter more distressing lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Pretty sure Robb would gladly trade places with the living. Cersei, Jaime and even Tyrion have had relatively comfortable lives compared to Arya, Bran, Sansa and presumably Rickon shorter more distressing lives. I disagree. Obviously the Starks in general have suffered, and that's why people are even considering arguing about this. Still, I believe no Stark would ever want to be a Lannister. They died and suffered, yes, but they stayed true. I'm not so sure about Tyrion and Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 LOL. I bet Robb wouldn't even switch to live again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bea Noleto Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Exactly. Everything was fine when Tywin was around, but he left shoes too big to fill. But one way or another, he was always going to die, and he didn't prepare Cersei and Jaime for it, and he refused to give Tyrion, the most able of his children and his heir, the command of his House. Not to mention that the RW is still going to bite them in the rear. He failed his House, and as someone else said, he was very powerful, the lannisters not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bea Noleto Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 The main reason House Stark was in trouble once Ned died is because he was the last remaining adult Stark (Catelyn doesn't count because she's a Tully and also a woman). That's hardly Ned's fault. Ned groomed his heir for rule and did it well. We see that Robb had the potential to be a great leader - his main handicap was his age, which couldn't be helped, and the fact that he had no other adult Stark to help him, which is how Winterfell fell. Ironically, had he been less capable he would have been less of a threat and many have lived. Then after Robb died the rest were too young to do anything. Your defense of Ned actually points a flaw. Being the only adult male is a huge reason for not getting himself in trouble. He knew the South was dangerous, even more if he was going to solve a murder with big political implications. I still think Ned is better than Tywin for his family, but, yes, he was dumb. It took him too long to realize the danger he was putting his family into. He should never have brought Arya and Sansa to KL by the way, no matter what excuse he would have to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 The Lannisters aren't doomed. They have a cadet branch. They might be better off than the Starks at the end. Most or half of the fandom thinks that Arya will die. She won't reproduce and help house Stark's numbers. The fandom is split on Rickon. They also believe Bran won't reproduce and he'll stay in that cave. The fandom only seems to think Sansa will live and have kids. That's only one. That isn't a pack and it's much less than the Lannisters having those of Lannisport plus if Gerion and Tyrek show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 "The wolves will come again." "And how would you be knowing that boy?" "Because I dreamed it....there are dreams and dreams, my lord." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Is there a secret chapter where the Lannisters have been overthrown in the Westerlands? Were the Lannister bannermen all expected to commit Seppuku to follow Tywin in the afterlife to show their loyalty? Casterly Rock remains Lannister land, the Starks lost their lands betrayed by their own Bannermen. Clearly one set of people were more loyal than the other set. Except the Lannister bannermen were motivated out of fear not love. I doubt Gregor and Lorch would have gone to the lengths of the mountain clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Except the Lannister bannermen were motivated out of fear not love. I doubt Gregor and Lorch would have gone to the lengths of the mountain clans. I'd say it more comes from respect than love. It doesn't have to come down to love vs. fear. Respect is also a way to follow someone. With Tywin, it was fear and respect. Why did Westermen follow Jaime, or Kevan, or Cersei? Because they respected Tywin. Because once the threat of Tywin was gone, if the Westerlords truly only followed him out of fear, a revolt would be imminent. But its not. The Lannisters are still the top dogs in the West, and there's no indication that's about to change anytime soon. When the lords speak to Jaime, or Kevan, they show respect, and I don't think it's because they're scared of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'd say it more comes from respect than love. It doesn't have to come down to love vs. fear. Respect is also a way to follow someone. With Tywin, it was fear and respect. Why did Westermen follow Jaime, or Kevan, or Cersei? Because they respected Tywin. Because once the threat of Tywin was gone, if the Westerlords truly only followed him out of fear, a revolt would be imminent. But its not. The Lannisters are still the top dogs in the West, and there's no indication that's about to change anytime soon. When the lords speak to Jaime, or Kevan, they show respect, and I don't think it's because they're scared of them. Because Tywin wanted to be feared. Those are his own words. Jaime didn't need to be feared, and they follow Cersei because who else are they going to follow, especially when she has the Crown behind her? If read Machiavelli you would know there is a difference between fear and hate. Fearing someone doesn't mean they'd just rebel as even Cat told Robb his bannermen should fear him a little. Well, Kevan was Tywin's second-in-command, and the bannermen took commands form him. Jaime is LC of the KG and a member of the small council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 "The wolves will come again." "And how would you be knowing that boy?" "Because I dreamed it....there are dreams and dreams, my lord." Considering he was warning Bran that Winterell would be drowned, I would not take his dreams too literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Brandon Ice Eyes Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Considering he was warning Bran that Winterell would be drowned, I would not take his dreams too literally. No one is taking it too literally. The wolves are a metaphor for the Starks which means they will rise again somehow. When Jojen said Winterfell would be drowned it was also a metaphor concerning the Ironborn invasion. No one is saying the Starks will be perfectly happy but I think it clearly means the Starks will be a force to be reckoned in the future once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo cool Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Would you rather have Eddard as a father or Tywin? That is your answer. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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