Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 This is a joke, right? Hard to tell. It's a part of the OP's relentless "Starks suck" campaign, but no idea whether he's serious or having his fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Clearly Ned. The Lannisters still have their family home. Tywin made his daughter Queen of Westeros and his two Grandsons Kings. His son became the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and he even made his other Son temporary Hand and then a member of the Small Council. Fathers are meant to provide and Tywin did so. Neds 'honor' doomed his family. Being a busy body ruined his, Sansa and Arya's lives and ended Robbs. He sent his 'bastard' to be a slave at the Wall and abandoned his crippled son at Winterfell. Not only was he a crap father to his own family, but he doomed his in-laws as well, bringing down the House of Tully. Just a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Clearly Ned. The Lannisters still have their family home. Tywin made his daughter Queen of Westeros and his two Grandsons Kings. His son became the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and he even made his other Son temporary Hand and then a member of the Small Council. Fathers are meant to provide and Tywin did so. Neds 'honor' doomed his family. Being a busy body ruined his, Sansa and Arya's lives and ended Robbs. He sent his 'bastard' to be a slave at the Wall and abandoned his crippled son at Winterfell. Not only was he a crap father to his own family, but he doomed his in-laws as well, bringing down the House of Tully. Just a mess. Both parents left their families/houses in terrible condition, though "who was worse for their families" the context should be examined further then the result. Ned's death was at the lowest point of his power while Tywin died at the height of his. The way they served their "families" was also diametrically opposed to one another: Stark honor and prestige would be sacrificed in an effort to keep family members alive, while family members would be use and potentially sacrificed at the expense of Lannister honor and prestige. Somewhere in the story of these two families is probably a rebuke from GRRM to both the Lannsiter and Stark Houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainGhost Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Who was worse for their families? Easily Tywin. He was a horrible father. Ned was a great father. Ned's son fought a war for him and refused to bend the knee to his murderers. Tywin's son killed him and is now working at bringing the rest of the family down so he can get Casterly Rock. Enough said. Who was worse for their Houses? Tough question. Both men inherited very difficult situations that could have ended their Houses. They both rescued their Houses from those situations and built them up strong again. But then after their deaths their Houses are once again in big trouble. Ultimately, I think both Houses are strong enough to survive their current troubles. They've both been in power too long to be easily replaceable. Tywin was well respected in the west and Ned in the north. I think both Houses' reputations will have taken a big hit (Lannisters are power hungry mass murderers, Starks are wargs who don't value betrothals) but then I can't think of any House who's going to emerge from this mess with a shining reputation. We'll have to wait for the end of the series but I don't think ultimately, despite their vastly differing approaches, that either was any worse for their House than the other. Maybe that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Ned's family is in ruins, yet his children and banner men still love him. Can't say the same for Tywin. This is so crazy. The North betrayed the Starks, they stabbed them in the back. Even before Robb was betrayed, they barely made any effort to come to Winterfells rescue. On the other hand the West stood by the Lannisters when the entire Kingdom was against them and both Jaime and Stafford Lannisters armies were defeated. It is as clear as day who has the more loyal bannemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flandrensis Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 A tough call. Tywin was a terrible father but kept his family in power. Ned was a great father but should never have gone to KL. Considering that Ned and Tywin are dead, the Starks are a ruin and the Lannisters are shattered I'd call it a draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acnologia Targaryen Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Honestly none of the stark kids can be blame for ned's stupidity. I mean come on Robb not betrothal and he was nearly a man, rickon or Bran weren't fostered to sure up alliances, no matches for sansa or arya come on man (maybe the rebellion afftected him in this). Tywin though guy makes an enemy outta so many house that will transfer to his kids generation it's not even funny. The guy was the best and worst thing that happened to his family if you ask me. Still his daughter did become queen and all his children have gone down in Westeros history in legendary status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Tywin. Ultimately he's responsible for the fall of his house. Despite popular opinion "Dumb" Ned left the Starks in a rather decent position. Far from great, but not up the creek. Take Sansa and Arya out of King's Landing and they're in a decent position. Tywin left the Lannisters with a spent military, little respect, no trust, and with only Kevan standing between them and ruin. Sure they look powerful but the second he dies it all crumbles immediately. It's obvious HE was powerful NOT the Lannisters. When Ned died Robb was rolling, it was HIS mistakes that screwed the Starks, not Ned's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Tywin. Ultimately he's responsible for the fall of his house. His House has not fallen. House Lannister still exists, still controls Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Isis Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 It has to be Tywin hands down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 His House has not fallen. House Lannister still exists, still controls Casterly Rock and the Westerlands.True but they've been castrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickrs Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 This is so crazy. The North betrayed the Starks, they stabbed them in the back. Even before Robb was betrayed, they barely made any effort to come to Winterfells rescue. On the other hand the West stood by the Lannisters when the entire Kingdom was against them and both Jaime and Stafford Lannisters armies were defeated. It is as clear as day who has the more loyal bannemen.Roose isn't the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Brandon Ice Eyes Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Ned tried to make moral decisions in a rotten world and a spiral of events led to his downfall and consequently of Sansa and Arya as well. You can not blame him for Robb's decisions that again no one could predict would led to an unprecedant massacre like the RW. Tywin on the other hand can be blamed for being a ruthless, cold, cruel father to his children what made them worse than they could have been. Ultimately he paid his price and was eliminated by his own son whom he abused frequently. Any of Ned's children ever harbored murderous feelings against him? We know you left your children in a shitty situation when you contributed for the execution of one of them. Yes, Tywin let Cersei to conduct her sham of a trial and the fact that Shae was found in his bed certainly doesn't help his case.Tywin also died without an heir to carry on his beloved Lannister name, the thing he worked for all his life, and earned them the emnity of almost the entire kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I would say Tywin. It's basically embodied in the "Anyone who is not us is our enemy" vs. "lone wolf dies, pack survives" quotes, and in how Ice is melted down while Needle is regained. When it comes to the good of the family, Tywin is so obsessed with the form that he looses sight of the substance; he fails to actually take care of the flesh-and-blood human beings. He alienates them to such a degree, that the most alienated and most politically wise of his children shoots him in the crotch with a crossbow bolt. "But it is high summer for House Lannister. So why am I so bloody cold?" After the death's of their parents, the trueborn Stark children (with POVS) recommit themselves to the Stark legacy, to Winterfell, and to each other's memory in many symbolic ways; Bran is growing into the next Builder by learning Northern magic; Arya finds Needle and administers Stark-style justice, and without intending to is moving towards the guerrilla warfare of her ancestors; and Sansa and is now in the midst of finishing Ned's unfinished work: defeating Littlefinger. But the Lannisters fall apart after the death of their last living parent. Only Tywin's strength kept them together. The implosion of House Lannister is symbolic of the collapse of the realm as a whole; too huge and divided to be truly bonded together, the force of brutal tyrants was only a band-aid, and actually made the final implosion worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 True but they've been castrated. There are multiple Lannister heirs still around. As said before the Lannister home is untouched. In fact, if you look at the Lannister Family they are in afar better position now then they were when Tytos was in charge. Roose isn't the North. He is now. But it wasn't just Roose, he had Karstarks with him at the Red Wedding. When Winterfell was captured the 'loyal' Northern Vassals sent a pathetic 1400 men to save the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimples Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 But it wasn't just Roose, he had Karstarks with him at the Red Wedding. When Winterfell was captured the 'loyal' Northern Vassals sent a pathetic 1400 men to save the Starks. This. While the Northern lords may talk of loving "the Ned," do they actually show it? Not really. After all, Stannis (hint: not a Stark) of all people manages to raise 3k or so "loyal" mountain clansmen who couldn't be bothered to help out Ned's beloved children earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 But it wasn't just Roose, he had Karstarks with him at the Red Wedding. When Winterfell was captured the 'loyal' Northern Vassals sent a pathetic 1400 men to save the Starks. You referring to Theon's raid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 You referring to Theon's raid? When Winterfell was captured, capital of the North and home to the beloved Starks, 600 Stark men fought for it while the 1400 was raised from its 'loyal vassals' such as the Manderlys, Flints, Karstarks etc. To be fair the Cerwyns certainly backed up the Starks as they sent 300, the other Lords not so much. We know that the Umbers were prepared to go home, but Robb had to threaten his house with destruction to force him to come. We also know that the likes of the Dustins and Ryswells kept back as many men as they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenKing23 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 How is this even a discussion? Only one was stupid enough to get killed by his son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little spiders Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Ned short term, Tywin long termI agree with this. While Ned was clearly the better father many of his decisions (and Catlyns) caused their family to be torn apart. They are making a comeback though and he raised them all to be smart and strong. Tywin on the other hand was the most powerful lord in Westeros and his grandsons are kings but im sure house Lannister is never going to recover from the damage his dysfunctional children have done. Tywin is definitly worse for his family for not raising them to be better people and treating his most level-headed son with disgust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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