Ned or Tywin: Who was truly worse for their families?

[Fire Eater]

Simple enough question

I'm going to say Ned; he left his house in complete disrepair due to his own stupidity. Bearing in mind that abusing one child (who he subsequently goes to war for) shouldn't outweigh the sterling position the Lannisters were left in after Tywin died (just as abruptly as Ned died so the circumstances are similar enough). And the Lannisters do enjoy a vastly higher quality of life than the Starks thanks to the firm foundation of power Tywin established

Except Ned's house didn't collapse immediately after his death, his son Robb proved to hold his own as a military commander, and even best Tywin at military strategy. The series isn't over yet, and GRRM thought of naming the last book A Time For Wolves for a reason. Ned's helping of who is likely to be the king in the end, Jon, will ultimately help the Starks and deal with the Lannisters. Also, Tywin was better father despite his neglect of his children, and his psychological and verbal abuse of his son Tyrion?

Jesus, so we are now ignoring the child abuse for "stellar" results of Lannister family?

Stellar, in this situation means:

1. One member is a kinslayer accused for a crime he didn't commit and which ultimately led to a family feud that won't end nicely

2. A luck has changed and Lannisters have been struck at the peak of their power in the very core.

3. Tywin left his lands without an heir, a kingdom in chaos, daughter who is complete nutshell

Stellar my...

He left his House in complete disarray and all of his work has proven to be epic failure.

4. Ned's bannermen are risking their lives just to save his daughter, and other are working behind the scenes to place his young sons back in WF. Tywin, OTOH, made enemies in Dorne, the North, the Crownlands and the riverlands who are eager to take revenge on his progeny for his actions. No one esteems the Lannisters anymore, and the honor of their House has become a joke in Westeros. "Lannister" is associated with brutality, corruption, dishonor, political backstabbing and rulers and lords acting above the law.

5. While the Starks are united the Lannisters are divided against each other. Kevan and Jaime don't seem to care where their house is headed, until Cersei royally screws up in Kevan's case and he is asked to be the Regent. Tyrion, Tywin's most talented child in terms of politics and military strategy, is working to bring the House down as mentioned.

6. Tywin's selection of men ends up hurting his cause. Amory Lorch attacks the bannerman of his nephew, Tyrek, and Vargo Hoat cuts off his son's hand.

The answer will always be the guy who was killed by his own son while taking a shit.

That sums it up nicely.

[Leonardo]

Jesus, so we are now ignoring the child abuse for "stellar" results of Lannister family?

Stellar, in this situation means:

1. One member is a kinslayer accused for a crime he didn't commit and which ultimately led to a family feud that won't end nicely

2. A luck has changed and Lannisters have been struck at the peak of their power in the very core.

3. Tywin left his lands without an heir, a kingdom in chaos, daughter who is complete nutshell

Stellar my...

He left his House in complete disarray and all of his work has proven to be epic failure.

Yeah going to agree with Mladen here as much as I love Tywin, he totally set up for everything to go to hell when he died. He had almost no contingency plan for it, and his arrogance will lead to his family's descent from power.

Ned's actions got no one but himself killed, and got Sansa imprisoned and Arya homeless but free. He also raised two of his sons to be excellent commanders and company leaders, one of whom will probably go down in history as the greatest general of all time.

[James Arryn]

Jesus, so we are now ignoring the child abuse for "stellar" results of Lannister family?

Stellar, in this situation means:

1. One member is a kinslayer accused for a crime he didn't commit and which ultimately led to a family feud that won't end nicely

2. A luck has changed and Lannisters have been struck at the peak of their power in the very core.

3. Tywin left his lands without an heir, a kingdom in chaos, daughter who is complete nutshell

Stellar my...

He left his House in complete disarray and all of his work has proven to be epic failure.

Don't disagree overall, but Tywin left at least 3 heirs not counting his 2 invalidated sons or his filial lines. His daughter, his granddaughter and his grandson. That's pretty decent as Houses go.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Let's see, the North will rise for any Stark, the Westerlands won't give a shit about the Lannisters now the Kevan is dead. Just watch, Western inner turmoil is a brewing.

[MyLittleFinger]

Let's see, the North will rise for any Stark, the Westerlands won't give a shit about the Lannisters now the Kevan is dead. Just watch, Western inner turmoil is a brewing.

Will they? Or will they rise for any 5 year old Stark they can control and gain massive influence through since his name is worth more than their families'?

[Trickrs]

The one who made his family a total dysfunctional shithole.

And literally died in the shit.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Will they? Or will they rise for any 5 year old Stark they can control and gain massive influence through since his name is worth more than their families'?

Meh, I tend to take the Wyman at his word, he generally seems loyal and really has nothing more to gain, he is already arguably the second most powerful house in the North.

[Dimples]

he is already arguably the second most powerful house in the North.

Wait, so Lord Manderly's the size of a house now?

[morgan1213]

This is a joke, right? Tywin. Didn't notice his golden children were incestuous. Condoned atrocities. All because he wanted power. Ned could've had that power and scorned the ass that sat in King Robert's comfy throne. You never hear how much his children loved him. Because they didn't. Only his bro Kev loved him. And Pycelle. That says a whole lot right there. Ned's kids loved him... everyone. His people loved him... "The Ned's girl". No contest

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I think Tywin Lannister tried to be the best father he could be. In terms of fathers though, his own was a disastrous weakling. Tywin's father let a whore parade about Casterly Rock in his wife's clothing and jewels. He allowed House Reyne to ridicule them. Tywin Lannister took the name of Lannister and made it a force to be reckoned with. In his defense, he thought he was building a legacy for his own family and restoring pride, dignity and respect to House Lannister. He was a young man when he destroyed the Reynes of Castamere. He gained a world of respect and fear after that. He took the woman who disrespected his mother's memory and paraded her down the streets naked. (perhaps a foreshadowing of what would happen to his own daughter, but also, a psychological set up for what Tywin later did to Tyrion and his wife).

Tywin took power and commanded respect. He did not suffer fools gladly. He was rich and powerful. He had reason to believe Tyrion was not his son. His efforts at a marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei failed miserably. Tywin always dealt with his family as if every move was crucial to their future for generations to come. This doesn't make him a bad father. He simply was not as affectionate as he could have been. He lost the only woman he ever loved to a dwarf child that he could never be certain was his. His golden children, Cersei & Jaime were disappointments. Jaime took the oath of the Kings Guard not understanding that he was playing into the Mad King's hands and plans. (maybe he wasn't as mad as we were led to believe). In one fell stroke, King Aerys took Tywin's heir of Casterly Rock away from him, refused the marriage of Rhaegar to Cersei and in a sense sealed his own fate by alienating House Lannister for any future alliances.

Tywin was a lousy father. He wanted his children to do his bidding without question as if they were machines or soldiers which actually, was the only life he truly understood. As astute as he was, he never truly understood that behind the fear, there was loathing and and an anger that was festering and ready to boil over at the first chance. Forcing a marriage on Tyrion and Sansa, forcing a marriage on Cersei, (yes, I know it did not happen), disowning Jaime. Tywin was of a mind that you were with him or you were against him. He did not believe in middle grounds or compromise. These were for weaker houses. Politics were a different animal and he was a shrewd politician who only made deals that benefited his house in one way or another. Those same actions, when applied to his family failed miserably. Your children are not playing pieces after all. Grown children do not expect to be spanked for wanting a say in their own lives.

I'll comment on Ned later, though truly, saying he was a bad father is like saying Michael Jordon was a mediocre basketball player.

[The King in Black]

Modelex is a troll

The guy is known for making provocative threads like this. As a reader I'm a fan of Tywin the commander. Tywin the father can go fuck himself.

I frankly don't get this guy. All I can say is he is a Daenerys fan , or atleast claims to be (I still remember the retarded 'REplace all gret houses' and 'Meereeen crucifiction ' threads). He hates the Starks and claims it's irrational to be over sympathetic to them when the author decided to give us five out of seven POV's in GOT all from them, that to sympathetic.

[PrinceHenryris]

Ned may have done stupid things, but at least he tried his best. He ruled the North well enough that the northerners love the NED :), and his children seem to e honourable, dutiful and loyal people, at least at their inner-core. (maybe Arya will escape that, but certainly not Jon, Bran and Rickon and the late Robb). The people in the North love him, but he will behead a traitor in a heartbeat. Though he extremely shit politically, I can sy that. He should have betrothed his children earlier, and fostered them at least around the North to build up relations. Keep Robb and Jon and Rickon at Winterfell while Arya, Sansa and Bran head off to foster with others.

While I agree with most of what you say, I don't know how "honorable" Rickon will be if he actually figures into the plot. I think he'll be more akin to Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark or his aunt and uncle who had the "Wolf Blood".

I'd love to read an epilogue, set decades in the future, telling the tale of the "Black Wolf" returning from exile and the carnage that followed.

[Tywin Manderly]

The answer will always be the guy who was killed by his own son while taking a shit.

This! :agree:

[TheHouseHB]

Obviously Ned. Like Tywin made his own son join a gang rape of his wife that automatically makes Ned the better for his family.

[sifth]

Ned's family is in ruins, yet his children and banner men still love him. Can't say the same for Tywin.

[ummester]

I think there is a deeper question hidden in here.

Sure, Ned is the man you would pick for a father over Tywin, any day. Ned is the man most fathers would want to be over Tywin, any day.

Yet, as the story of ASoIaF unfolds, we read that each of them and their offspring, are successful and flawed, in their own ways. Ned would organize his game plan something like 1) honor, 2) discipline, 3) tactics, 4) ambition. Tywin's would be opposite, with ambition first and honor a distant last. Then here is the question? Does ambition or honor make a person more successful?

Think even to the modern workplace - how many people get promoted not because they are honorable and disciplined but because they are ambitious, tactical and full of themselves? Which is the best way to prepare a child for that? I think this is the deeper question the contrast of Ned and Tywin asks.

[The King in Black]

I think there is a deeper question hidden in here.

Sure, Ned is the man you would pick for a father over Tywin, any day. Ned is the man most fathers would want to be over Tywin, any day.

Yet, as the story of ASoIaF unfolds, we read that each of them and their offspring, are successful and flawed, in their own ways. Ned would organize his game plan something like 1) honor, 2) discipline, 3) tactics, 4) ambition. Tywin's would be opposite, with ambition first and honor a distant last. Then here is the question? Does ambition or honor make a person more successful?

Think even to the modern workplace - how many people get promoted not because they are honorable and disciplined but because they are ambitious, tactical and full of themselves? Which is the best way to prepare a child for that? I think this is the deeper question the contrast of Ned and Tywin asks.

Except OP doesn't care for the deeper questions

[Stubby]

[MOD]

A derail developed in this thread based on some personal attacks.

The derail has been deleted and other actions taken.

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Thanks.

[/MOD]

[James Steller]

Ned short term, Tywin long term

[Salafi Stannis]

Ned actually loved his children and made them into good, honourable decent human beings. Anything you might want to say about how shitty the Stark kids turned out (which I disagree with) is a direct result of his death, him not being there and their whole loves being ruined by the Lannisters. Tywin was an genocidal mass murderer who fucked up his children:

Jaime who, although saved KL, he did fuck his sister and try to kill Bran and Arya and do a whole lot of shit I can't remember and God know what else he's done that hasn't been documented in the books

Cersei: Is an evil crazy spiteful bitch who fucked her brother and mistreats everybody around her, gives people to Qyburn, is an incompetent fool who think's she's a genius and think's she's the victim of everything.

Tyrion: I like him, but he is horribly mistreated by Tywin, who, among many other things, had Tyrion's wife raped and forced him to rape her aswell. And you could argue that he raped a whore.