Ned or Tywin: Who was truly worse for their families?

[Fire Eater]

He is now.

But it wasn't just Roose, he had Karstarks with him at the Red Wedding. When Winterfell was captured the 'loyal' Northern Vassals sent a pathetic 1400 men to save the Starks.

It is nowhere stated that the Karstarks were part of the RW.

The Northern vassals were commanded by Rodrick Stark who had an army large enough to take WF.

There are multiple Lannister heirs still around. As said before the Lannister home is untouched. In fact, if you look at the Lannister Family they are in afar better position now then they were when Tytos was in charge.

CR is not going to be untouched for long given every major house's fortress is being taken.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Neds 'honor' doomed his family. Being a busy body ruined his, Sansa and Arya's lives and ended Robbs. He sent his 'bastard' to be a slave at the Wall and abandoned his crippled son at Winterfell. Not only was he a crap father to his own family, but he doomed his in-laws as well, bringing down the House of Tully. Just a mess.

:rolleyes:

Only that argument is enough to not being taken seriously.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Wait, so Lord Manderly's the size of a house now?

Last time I checked houses cannot sit a horse and have to be moved on barges, so yes, he is the size of a house.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It is nowhere stated that the Karstarks were part of the RW.

Roose tells Cat.

"How many men have you brought my son?" she asked Roose Bolton pointedly.

His queer colorless eyes studied her face a moment before he answered. "Some five hundred horse and three thousand foot, my lady. Dreadfort men, in chief, and some from Karhold. With the loyalty of the Karstarks so doubtful now, I thought it best to keep them close.

It's pretty clear which side they are on.

The Northern vassals were commanded by Rodrick Stark who had an army large enough to take WF.

Evidently not as they did not retake Winterfell.

CR is not going to be untouched for long given every major house's fortress is being taken.

So just because Winterfell, Storms End and Riverrun have been taken then so wil the Eyrie, Casterly Rock, Highgarden and Sunspear?

:rolleyes:

Only that argument is enough to not being taken seriously.

What else would you call the Brothers of the Nights Watch?

Poor old Gared had been at the Wall since he was a boy and had lost both ears, three toes and a finger to serving the realm at the Wall and has his head chopped off for leaving. It is a form of slavery.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What else would you call the Brothers of the Nights Watch?

Poor old Gared had been at the Wall since he was a boy and had lost both ears, three toes and a finger to serving the realm at the Wall and has his head chopped off for leaving. It is a form of slavery.

Do you know what is a form of slavery?

Slavery.

It's just there, crossing the narrow sea. It's how Cersei got rid of Robert's bastard twins. It's what Mormont did and got Ned asking for his Ned.

Joining the NW is anything like slavery at all.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Do you know what is a form of slavery?

Slavery.

It's just there, crossing the narrow sea. It's how Cersei got rid of Robert's bastard twins. It's what Mormont did and got Ned asking for his Ned.

Joining the NW is anything like slavery at all.

Yes, it is.

slavery (ˈsleɪvərɪ )

Definitions

noun

1. the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune

2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work

the condition of being subject to some influence or habit

work done in harsh conditions for low pay

3 and 4 certainly applies to the members of the Nights Watch.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

3 and 4 certainly applies to the members of the Nights Watch.

3 and 4 apply pretty much to every kind of work in Westeros that is not being a Lord.

[ummester]

A tough call. Tywin was a terrible father but kept his family in power. Ned was a great father but should never have gone to KL. Considering that Ned and Tywin are dead, the Starks are a ruin and the Lannisters are shattered I'd call it a draw.

I would agree here - GRRM has written 2 fathering techniques, which both had their successes and both ultimately failed.

When you think about it, neither Ned, nor Tywin, were flexible enough to survive. There was too much 'old dog' in each of them - they couldn't change with the times.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 and 4 certainly applies to the members of the Nights Watch.

Cool, we are in agreement then.

[the Scorpion Knight]

There are multiple Lannister heirs still around. As said before the Lannister home is untouched. In fact, if you look at the Lannister Family they are in afar better position now then they were when Tytos was in charge.

....

who exactly?

the heirs of main line are besides Cersei(a cruel madwoman) are KIDS (I'm discounting Jaime and Lancel because of their vows and tyrion due to ibvivuous reasons ) and daven only comes after them.

[Bryanfury]

3 and 4 apply pretty much to every kind of work in Westeros that is not being a Lord.

In all honesty 3 and 4 apply to a lot of real world situations too.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

When Winterfell was captured, capital of the North and home to the beloved Starks, 600 Stark men fought for it while the 1400 was raised from its 'loyal vassals' such as the Manderlys, Flints, Karstarks etc. To be fair the Cerwyns certainly backed up the Starks as they sent 300, the other Lords not so much.

We know that the Umbers were prepared to go home, but Robb had to threaten his house with destruction to force him to come. We also know that the likes of the Dustins and Ryswells kept back as many men as they could.

So is that a yes?

I mean, even sending the 1400 men that they did was really an overreaction unless you foresee Ramsay's betrayal, if you know that the Ironborn only numbered a few dozen, and actually much less. 300 would have sufficed and actually prevented a lot of needless death.

Also, Barbary Dustin said she held her men back, the Dustins. The Ryswells inner motives and feelings about the Starks are largely unknown.

The GNC has made a great case that while Barbary hates The Ned, but he's dead and she openly hates Ramsay Bolton who killed her "beloved nephew." Manderly has likely told her about Rickon, and there's no way she's staying on a sinking Bolton ship anymore than she willing to stay on the previously sinking Stark one.

Umber wanted to lead the van, he wanted to be at the head of the fight. He only threatened to stay home cause he felt he wasn't being properly respected, "the Umbers only truly respect strength" which was shown when Robb humbled the Greatjon and made him into his most fanatical champion.

That's Umbers for ya.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Is this even a question? Ned might have been less politically competent but at least his son didn't kill him in the toilet with his other son and daughter not even mourning him. Cersei admires him, definitely, but she doesn't miss him and neither does Jaime. Contrast that to Sansa almost killing herself, Robb fighting the Lannisters for vengence, Jon almost abandoning the NW to avenge Ned and Arya's grief and hate for Cersei and Joffrey.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

who exactly?

the heirs of main line are besides Cersei(a cruel madwoman) are KIDS (I'm discounting Jaime and Lancel because of their vows and tyrion due to ibvivuous reasons ) and daven only comes after them.

Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Lancel(we are not sure what his vows entail, he just did not want to be married), Martyn, Janei, Tyrek(if still alive) Genna, Ty, Willem, Lyonal, Red Walder, Daven, Cerwenna, Myrielle, Damion, Lucion, Lanna and Margot. And they are just the alive Lannistes we know about.

There are plenty of Lannisters about as Cat Tully says "The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house." This is a woman with 5 children of her own and she notes how large the Lannister family is.

I mean, even sending the 1400 men that they did was really an overreaction unless you foresee Ramsay's betrayal, if you know that the Ironborn only numbered a few dozen, and actually much less. 300 would have sufficed and actually prevented a lot of needless death.

How would Luwin or the other Northern Lords know that there was only a few dozen? Cassel certainly didn't as he tried to raise many men as possible. The book reader knows how many the Northerners clearly dont, they just seem reports of Ironborn taking settlements.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Lancel(we are not sure what his vows entail, he just did not want to be married), Martyn, Janei, Tyrek(if still alive) Genna, Ty, Willem, Lyonal, Red Walder, Daven, Cerwenna, Myrielle, Damion, Lucion, Lanna and Margot. And they are just the alive Lannistes we know about.

How would Luwin or the other Northern Lords know that there was only a few dozen? Cassel certainly didn't as he tried to raise many men as possible. The book reader knows how many the Northerners clearly dont, they just seem reports of Ironborn taking settlements.

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds."

Tywin and Cercei's lines are dying out, but I would think one of the Lannisters of Lannisport would probably inherit when all the dust settles, although few are named and none is narratively important.

Intelligence from locals and scouts sent ahead. Like, intelligence. Piecing together that whoever was holding Winterfell wasn't a large group wouldn't have been hard to devise.

[Lion of the West]

Tywin, because Robb needed more time than Cersei to cause it all to crumble. :(

[Ameew]

Ned had very positive relationships with all his children and instilled a good moral code in them all. Yes his mistake irrevocably changed their lives , but until then he was very good to them.

None of Tywin's children are close to him and I think it's debatable if they even love him and vice versa. He just sees them as extensions of the Lannister family name . Tywin is worse hands down .

[thelittledragonthatcould]

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds."

Tywin and Cercei's lines are dying out, but I would think one of the Lannisters of Lannisport would probably inherit when all the dust settles, although few are named and none is narratively important.

The Lannisport Lannisters are a cadet branch like the Karstarks, we don't know if they are younger or older than them, but there would certainly be many Casterly rock Lannisters who would come before them.

We know quite a bit about the family tree. Damon the Grey Lion was the Lord of the West when we first encounter Dunk and Egg. He had at least two children, his oldest and heir was Tybolt who had an heir himself Sarella. They both died so it went back up the tree to Gerold who himself had many sons. The first two died so Tytos and his branch has inherited, in the unlikely scenario in which all of Tytos children and grandchildren die then it will simply go up the branch to his younger brother Jason Lannister who we know had at least 6 children, of which Stafford had a son Daven who is currently the Warden of the West.

The Lannisters really are quite secure for heirs. One of the benefits to the rich families like the Lannisters, Tyrells and Hightowers is that they can find jobs for second, third and fourth cousins within the area so they still stay in close contact with the main branch.

Intelligence from locals and scouts sent ahead. Like, intelligence. Piecing together that whoever was holding Winterfell wasn't a large group wouldn't have been hard to devise.

Clearly the intelligence they had suggested that it was a bigger threat than it actually was. Cassel gathered his 600 from Winterfell and the holdfasts in the Winterfell area, leaving them exposed, the Tallharts did the same taking all their available men to Winterfell thus allowing a few Ironborn to take them.

The intelligence was either very poor in Winterfell or the North presumed that these small numbers were going to be joined up by the thousands of Ironborn elsewhere in the country.

[Dimples]

The Lannisport Lannisters are a cadet branch like the Karstarks, we don't know if they are younger or older than them, but there would certainly be many Casterly rock Lannisters who would come before them.

The Lannisport Lannisters don't seem to hold land, unlike the Karstarks.

The intelligence was either very poor in Winterfell or the North presumed that these small numbers were going to be joined up by the thousands of Ironborn elsewhere in the country.

A big part was also Rodrik Cassel's stupidity.

[Poppa Chase]

Littlefinger was the worst for both their houses.