I truly don't get the Stannis apologisits...

[Father of Hosts]

Sun Tzu: Capitalizing on your enemy's mistakes is as important as not making them yourself.

Napoleon: The first rule of war: if your enemy goes to make a mistake, let him!

Clausewitz: the successful commander owes his victories to the mistakes of his adverseries.

Etc.

This goes against every principle I have about internet debates but, just to humor you:

The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him.

Niccolo Machiavelli

[GallowsKnight]

I don't believe in execution in RL. I hate moral relativism, I believe something are fundamentally wrong regardless of the cultural background (like slavery). I don't like that Stannis burns people, I'd rather he didn't.

But I won't stand by when he gets singled out, when all across Westeros (and Essos) people are put in crow cages, black cells or oubliettes. They're locked in sky cells and pushed out of moon doors. They have "the whore" placed on their genitals in the Wolfsden. They're "questioned" so hard by Qorin Halfhand they don't survive. They're crucified, vivisected and flayed.

Even though who get the rope or the axe rarely get the clean break of a neck or single stroke from Ice.

Crime and punishment sucks in Westeros. At least Stannis seems fairer than most. Gelding rapists in his own army and choosing not to kill Crab Island innocents for their lord's behaviour.

As for the Rambtons, they killed Stannis' men, when he tried to destroy HIS OWN PROPERTY. Yes it was poorly done and insensitive, but he didn't sail over to their keep and destroy their Sept. Why are some wooden relics worth more than mens lives?

As for Guncer Sunglass? That totally sucks. The man did the right thing through non-violent protest for his beliefs. But his actions were still treason and I imagine a queen has the authority to order executions. So what can Stannis do when he limps back defeated to punish Selyse or right that wrong? He's got bigger issues on his plate and needs Melissandre. We don't see his POV but I imagine he was pretty pissed off by their actions.

[The King in Black]

There are 2 kinds of 'hard' men

1.The summer camp dorm rector

A hole who likes to bully others in the name of discipline, has a contrived code of rules and is just a high placed douchebag

2. The summer camp activities instructor

The perfect alpha everybody wants to be and wants to follow with an aura of pure awesomeness around him

Stan is a superimposition of both who mostly exists as a resonance structure of both forms but occasionally swings either way. So on the range wave you'll find extremities, more so towards 2. For obvious reasons.

[James Arryn]

This goes against every principle I have about internet debates but, just to humor you:

The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him.

Niccolo Machiavelli

We agree!

Military maxims are much more consistent then political ones, but in this case I agree with both. Tarly, Rowan, Redwyne, etc. All mentioned as solid Hand candidates by neutral observers. I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye.

[Minsc]

His fleet was underwhelming and as is stated by GRRM there were lots of campaigns that went on in between that aren't specifically mentioned.

I doubt the Royal Fleet (which likely was assisted by the Redwyne fleet) was underwhelming, that is nice but is the end meaningless.

[Boarsbane]

We agree!

Military maxims are much more consistent then political ones, but in this case I agree with both. Tarly, Rowan, Redwyne, etc. All mentioned as solid Hand candidates by neutral observers. I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye.

Oh please those idiots didn't even remotely suspect a shadowbaby might kill Renly

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We agree!

Military maxims are much more consistent then political ones, but in this case I agree with both. Tarly, Rowan, Redwyne, etc. All mentioned as solid Hand candidates by neutral observers. I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye.

And all of whom owe fealty to the Tyrells, who back Renly because 1. it makes their daughter the queen and 2. he's fucking their son. The Tyrell money and bannermen could back a sack of potatoes and give it a good shot at winning a war, that doesn't mean the sack of potatoes has a knack for spotting character.

[Father of Hosts]

Answer me this, knowing what they know, what should they have done instead? What would these adapt military commanders you speak of have done?

Maybe go to KL? Renly wants the Throne right?

My whole point was that: The fact that no one even says anything, that Renly isn't slightly puzzled by this is incredibly dumb. The fact that no one says "Why would Stannis come here? Whats he have to win by this?" Underestimating your opponent is a fairly common flaw that men like Tarly should have known and pointed out. Well, I'm sure Tarly was out with the van or something but seriously. Stannis gains nothing by besieging Storms End. Shouldn't you know your opponent better than that?

[Boarsbane]

Maybe go to KL? Renly wants the Throne right?

My whole point was that: The fact that no one even says anything, that Renly isn't slightly puzzled by this is incredibly dumb. The fact that no one says "Why would Stannis come here? Whats he have to win by this?" Underestimating your opponent is a fairly common flaw that men like Tarly should have known and pointed out. Well, I'm sure Tarly was out with the van or something but seriously. Stannis gains nothing by besieging Storms End. Shouldn't you know your opponent better than that?

So leave a skilled commander to your rear to rally more support? What ever he has planned you have to face him eventually, no since in letting his numbers grow.

It is odd that no one points out the stupidity in Stannis' actions, but again knowing what they know there is no reason for them to assume he has anything up his sleeve that could undo them, like say a shadowbaby.

[Father of Hosts]

We agree!

Military maxims are much more consistent then political ones, but in this case I agree with both. Tarly, Rowan, Redwyne, etc. All mentioned as solid Hand candidates by neutral observers. I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye.

Letting someone else make the mistake first isn't just for the military. It's just general strategy, in anything.

Indeed. They would be good at administering during times of peace. I guess just not at times of war. The quote is not politics specific. Much like yours aren't war specific

[James Arryn]

And all of whom owe fealty to the Tyrells, who back Renly because 1. it makes their daughter the queen and 2. he's fucking their son.

More A than B, but yeah, that's how decisions are made. No?

Wait, no.

"They looked each other up and down. Measured the jut of the jaw, the glint in the eye, the straightness of the spine. 'Would this man be true? Would he eat rats rather than surrender? Would he have a secret magic assassin up his sleeve? These were the questions each was asking himself of the other. Kingdoms would rise and fall on this."

Better?

[Jankmaster]

Thought aside from Tarly most of the reach lords don't have a stellar reputation for command or administration?

[James Arryn]

Maybe go to KL? Renly wants the Throne right?

My whole point was that: The fact that no one even says anything, that Renly isn't slightly puzzled by this is incredibly dumb. The fact that no one says "Why would Stannis come here? Whats he have to win by this?" Underestimating your opponent is a fairly common flaw that men like Tarly should have known and pointed out. Well, I'm sure Tarly was out with the van or something but seriously. Stannis gains nothing by besieging Storms End. Shouldn't you know your opponent better than that?

I won't quote standard military maxims about exposing lines of supply and withdrawal, or engaging in a siege with an enemy force in the field, I'll just say Blackwater.

And, again, UNLESS STANNIS LIED, Renly estimated him exactly correctly.

Not a stretch considering he makes exactly the same basic military blunder agin later.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My whole point was that: The fact that no one even says anything, that Renly isn't slightly puzzled by this is incredibly dumb.

Yeah, it's one thing to be unsure of how to proceed once you suspect that Stannis has something else up his sleeve. It's another to be completely oblivious that he might have something else up his sleeve at all. But again, I think that's the thing with Renly and his advisers: These guys are confident of their own success based on standard military "rules" that it never even dawns on them that such things have limits.

I really do think that that is the lesson from Renly: Popularity, the biggest army, the most money, whatever, are not always enough to win or enough to save you. And in that way, the complaints that Renly should have done XYZ with so much are kind of missing the point. The "standard military" rulebook doesn't matter worth shit in this situation, and that's the point.

[Jankmaster]

So has this become the new or at least most drawn out board conflict. Not this thread specifically, but I remember most of them used to be about Jon, a couple were about Tyrion. My own thing had a huge blow up of Robb vs Edmure, and some are about Targs and all the fun stuff they bring.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So has this become the new or at least most drawn out board conflict. Not this thread specifically, but I remember most of them used to be about Jon, a couple were about Tyrion. My own thing had a huge blow up of Robb vs Edmure, and some are about Targs and all the fun stuff they bring.

It's a sore spot for some that the biggest military lost to a magic shadowbaby. And some people think Renly would have been a decent king for reasons that are completely unfathomable to me. Olenna Tyrell had the right of it, honestly. Even Cressen thought Renly was in over his head and had no idea what he was getting into.

[James Arryn]

It's a sore spot for some that the biggest military lost to a magic shadowbaby. And some people think Renly would have been a decent king for reasons that are completely unfathomable to me. Olenna Tyrell had the right of it, honestly. Even Cressen thought Renly was in over his head and had no idea what he was getting into.

Apple, just for me, could you expound on the brilliance of Cersei's boar attack, and how that demonstrates The Way Things Work in regards to her/Joff's superiority to Ned?

[Father of Hosts]

So leave a skilled commander to your rear to rally more support? What ever he has planned you have to face him eventually, no since in let his numbers grow.

It is odd that no one points out the stupidity in Stannis' actions, but again knowing what they know there is no reason for them to assume he has anything up his sleeve that could undo them, like say a shadowbaby.

Stannis has 5k to Renly's 100k. I don't think the concern was Stannis overwhelming Renly with might.

It was stupid of Stannis, strategically. But I'm a firm believer in knowing your opponent. You just said he was a skilled commander, Renly and his advisors should have known this and questioned why he would blunder so badly. The fact that there is no concern is baffling to me. This isn't just having troops out of posistion, it's knowing that you will be trapped with your back against a hostile wall. Like The Two Towers except that helms deep was filled with orcs and you were standing in front of it.

I'm not even arguing what they did was wrong or that they should have known that the shadow baby was coming.

I'm making the point that the arrogance and overconfidence was a flaw within Renly himself and something he prided in his advisors. And he paid a price for it. Had he rode hard for King's landing he might have lived.

[TheZone]

I resent the Hipster label. > =(

And about Renly, he had it coming. Renly was a selfish prick who thought just because a bunch of people told him he would make a good king, why not go for it? IIRC he had no evidence of the twincest so he just said "I'll be better at being King so I am rebelling." He was a selfish, vain little prick and he is hopefully burning in all seven hells.

Excuse me, whether he was actually a better candidate for the throne or not is arguable, but if YOU KNOW YOU WILL BE A GOOD KING and your older brother will suck, you cannot let him be king.

[Minsc]

Even Cressen thought Renly was in over his head and had no idea what he was getting into.

And if you cannot trust a highly biased man who had last seen the person in question since they were around eight then who can you trust.

Also I don't see why it is unfathomable that people believe he will be a good king, especially when one looks at some of the other individuals that people support.