Feminism - more of it

[lady narcissa]

Well unlike mouse, I do get subjected to comments in Chicago. But I walk about 5 miles a day and cover a lot of sidewalks on a daily basis so there is much more potential for exposure to comments than the average woman on a daily basis in Chicago. Its been pretty consistent since I was a teenager although they are starting to taper off a bit. (This is one of the very good things about getting older!) My experience in NYC was similar to that of Chicago. I haven't really experienced it in other places in the US but most of the time when I'm traveling I'm with other people which keeps the comments away.

70% of the comments are about my ass. 30% of them are telling me to "SMILE pretty lady!" Most of them are non threatening and harmless but I still don't enjoy them.

Anecdotally, the very worst harassment I have ever been subjected to was in Munich. I had previously that summer been in Italy where I had been warned about harassment. Every female I knew told me about butt pinching and whistles they had been subjected to in Italy. I walked through Italy without a pinch or whistle! So imagine my surprise upon arriving in Munich, a country no one I knew had ever been harassed in, and had the scariest day of my life with men following me around, whistling, making comments to me...I actually left early because I was by myself and felt unsafe. Much worse than anything I have every experienced anywhere else.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Just to chime in again, I also HATE the "smile" line. It makes me stabbity. My mood (or bitchy resting face, or whatever) is not your business.

[Theda Baratheon]

I HATE being told to smile and it has happened so many times. Fucks me right off.

[mouse]

Well unlike mouse, I do get subjected to comments in Chicago. But I walk about 5 miles a day and cover a lot of sidewalks on a daily basis so there is much more potential for exposure to comments than the average woman on a daily basis in Chicago. Its been pretty consistent since I was a teenager although they are starting to taper off a bit. (This is one of the very good things about getting older!) My experience in NYC was similar to that of Chicago. I haven't really experienced it in other places in the US but most of the time when I'm traveling I'm with other people which keeps the comments away.

70% of the comments are about my ass. 30% of them are telling me to "SMILE pretty lady!" Most of them are non threatening and harmless but I still don't enjoy them.

LN, since we work across the street from one another, do you know the homeless guy I am talking about? He's usually about 2 blocks west of you. Every time I tell him that, sorry, I can't give him money, he says, "I hear you saying no, but your pretty smile is saying yes," and that just sounds so rape-y to me.

My lack of experience with cat-calling should not be viewed as evidence that it doesn't routinely happen to others. To wit - LN and I work across the street from each other, and her experience is different than mine! That could be because I drive a LOT for a city-dweller, and take public transportation very infrequently. In fact, I have taken public transportation more in the last month than in probably the last 5 years. (I do, however, walk a lot too.)

But my point earlier about cultural conditioning (i.e., we tell little girls all the time how pretty they are, as if that's the most interesting thing about them) - Look, we've all been raised in a society where girls, then women, are valued for their looks. That makes it comprehensible why men think it's fine to compliment women on the street. We get that you don't mean any harm, and we get why you're initially baffled that it does, in fact, cause harm. But "comprehensible" doesn't mean "good."

[TerraPrime]

But my point earlier about cultural conditioning (i.e., we tell little girls all the time how pretty they are, as if that's the most interesting thing about them) - Look, we've all been raised in a society where girls, then women, are valued for their looks. That makes it comprehensible why men think it's fine to compliment women on the street. We get that you don't mean any harm, and we get why you're initially baffled that it does, in fact, cause harm. But "comprehensible" doesn't mean "good."

And, I might add, at some point, this unwillingness to simply accept that the action one initiates without malicious intent does indeed cause harm becomes no longer explicable due to ignorance of said harm being done. Persistence in refusing to accept this becomes a form of dimissal of women's life experience, which is itself a form of sexism.

[lady narcissa]

LN, since we work across the street from one another, do you know the homeless guy I am talking about? He's usually about 2 blocks west of you. Every time I tell him that, sorry, I can't give him money, he says, "I hear you saying no, but your pretty smile is saying yes," and that just sounds so rape-y to me.

Oh yikes actually no I haven't encountered him. That is an uncomfortable comment to deal with. But I generally go no more than one block west from my office on a regular basis so I'm not surprised I have missed him. I shall now consciously try to continue avoiding him. But yes, even though you and I work across the street from each other, just walking different ways can make all the difference in our experiences.

But my point earlier about cultural conditioning (i.e., we tell little girls all the time how pretty they are, as if that's the most interesting thing about them) - Look, we've all been raised in a society where girls, then women, are valued for their looks. That makes it comprehensible why men think it's fine to compliment women on the street. We get that you don't mean any harm, and we get why you're initially baffled that it does, in fact, cause harm. But "comprehensible" doesn't mean "good."

When I was a little girl I was very uncomfortable with these sorts of comments and generally tried to discourage anyone from making them. Comments like "you look so pretty" or "aren't you sweet" were met with "I don't want to be pretty!" and "don't call me sweet!" I'm not sure what inspired this reaction but I guess even then I was aware that this wasn't something I wanted people focusing on when interacting with me. As a result I would actively try to discourage people from saying these things by avoiding "pretty" dresses and other (perceived girly) things that I thought might invite comment by wearing a lot of boys clothing and having short hair. But instead I'd get comments like "if you grew your hair longer, you'd be prettier." Ugh.

[Gneisenau]

They should also mention, that in these situations the person getting harassed cannot respond, or else they risk their response being interpreted as giving approval.

[Lyanna Stark]

Isn't it interesting that women are supposed to always be thankful for people pointing out they are following the beauty norm?

[eyenon15]

As long as the topic of random NYC street people is out there, I'd like to walk there once without being called a "f*gg*t" or threatened to get beat up.

I cringe at the thought of what would happen after 10 hours of walking.

[Prince Alexander]

I know it is hard for you to be objective since you admitted to "complimenting" women who are strangers to you, but honestly, this is not about "demonizing" men, especially not "men in general" or "all men."

First, it is not "demonizing" anyone to point out that the action that they are doing is a form of harassment. To "demonize" someone usually means attributing malicious intent to their actions. This is not about that. Some of these men honestly feel, as you do, that they're just "complimenting" attractive women and they do not intent to harass. But, in practice, plenty of women (though not all) do feel harassed by these "compliments."

Second, the video and the attendant commentary is about men who do those things, which as it stands, does include you. So I get that you want this to be about "men in general." Completely clear why you'd have that bias. But it's not true that this is about all men. It's about men who use sexually aggressive language and expressions on women in public spaces. So, really, #notallmen.

Bottomline is, this video is clickbait "worst of my day" compilation. Yes, the guy following is terrible and I'm hoping there is police near to curb shit like this from happening.

Other than physical confrontation, what are we trying to control here?

What I want and do to help feminism is action. Shit like this video is not action, it's attention that does (questionable) x amount of help and y amount of harm.

Yes, this video is basically saying: men should not talk to stranger women.

EVERY one of the women I recently complimented at random social situations (parks, bar, gym, subway) ended up going on a date with me. Sup anecdotal evidence. Though I'm sure all those women were actually terrified and forced by patriarchy to go on those dates. One of the women I went on a date with might become my long term friend. You DON'T know how much good vs bad this social interaction creates.

I ended up showing this video to a female friend last night and it actually made major belarussian site new (http://news.tut.by/kaleidoscope/421621.html). The response here is basically universally: "wtf is she complaining about, this is awesome"

[Yersinia]

I often find myself over-analyzing my interactions with my 2-year-old daughter. (Oh shit, did I just say she was pretty? Should I have said strong or smart instead? Should I buy her the princess costume because she'll probably like it, or something that's more gender-neutral so I'll feel a bit better about myself?)

With my son, it feels much more natural. I say whatever I feel like saying and buy him whatever I think he'll like.

The fact that I feel constrained in what I can say to my daughter but not to my son, because I don't want to treat her any differently, pretty much sums up the problem.

[protar]

Bottomline is, this video is clickbait "worst of my day" compilation. Yes, the guy following is terrible and I'm hoping there is police near to curb shit like this from happening.

Other than physical confrontation, what are we trying to control here?

What I want and do to help feminism is action. Shit like this video is not action, it's attention that does (questionable) x amount of help and y amount of harm.

Yes, this video is basically saying: men should not talk to stranger women.

EVERY one of the women I recently complimented at random social situations (parks, bar, gym, subway) ended up going on a date with me. Sup anecdotal evidence. Though I'm sure all those women were actually terrified and forced by patriarchy to go on those dates. One of the women I went on a date with might become my long term friend. You DON'T know how much good vs bad this social interaction creates.

I ended up showing this video to a female friend last night and it actually made major belarussian site new (http://news.tut.by/kaleidoscope/421621.html). The response here is basically universally: "wtf is she complaining about, this is awesome"

I sincerely doubt that you complimented entirely random women who where just passing by you and got a date out of it. It's quite different if there's some scenario which puts the two of you together - like you're on the subway together and you strike up a conversation to pass the time. And it's certainly very different from complimenting someone in a bar. This video isn't about subways and bars.

One point that I have seen made by the detractors of this video which is somewhat valid is that apparently (and I'd need someone more familiar with New York to confirm it) this video takes place in the stereotypically rougher parts of New York. So it may not be completely representative. Which isn't to say cat calling isn't a problem, but it would be said if the people behind the video felt the need to manufacture an even worse scenario.

[Prince Alexander]

I sincerely doubt that you complimented entirely random women who where just passing by you and got a date out of it. It's quite different if there's some scenario which puts the two of you together - like you're on the subway together and you strike up a conversation to pass the time. And it's certainly very different from complimenting someone in a bar. This video isn't about subways and bars.

One point that I have seen made by the detractors of this video which is somewhat valid is that apparently (and I'd need someone more familiar with New York to confirm it) this video takes place in the stereotypically rougher parts of New York. So it may not be completely representative. Which isn't to say cat calling isn't a problem, but it would be said if the people behind the video felt the need to manufacture an even worse scenario.

I consider it rude to stop and engage someone who's moving (even if it's to ask directions), because they might be in a hurry, etc, or for example it's the same if someone is doing an exercise at the gym and you start talking to them. I don't want to have people talk to me when I have 120kg over my chest and focusing on doing the set. Same idea. So I'm fully behind people minding their own business and not distracting those who are clearly occupied.

But my point is that this video is yet another men vs women clickbait that offers no objectively good messsage (except don't stalk? duh?)

You're saying it's ok to compliment women in subway or bars? How the hell is that different, then? Same arguments posters mentioned above can be applied in any freaking environment.

Woman alone at a bar looking bored? Can't compliment her, she doesn't need compliments, cause that's objectification and is creepy, just mind your own business man.

[Shryke]

But my point is that this video is yet another men vs women clickbait that offers no objectively good messsage (except don't stalk? duh?)

Don't harass women on the street is a good message. Even "objectively good", whatever the hell that means.

It's also an important lesson since, you know, the whole point of the video is to demonstrate that tons of men didn't get the message.

Other than physical confrontation, what are we trying to control here?

People yelling shit at random women in the street. As should be obvious from the video, since that's what it's about.

What I want and do to help feminism is action. Shit like this video is not action, it's attention that does (questionable) x amount of help and y amount of harm.

Yes, this video is basically saying: men should not talk to stranger women.

Yes, you shouldn't start yelling stuff at random women on the street. The video accomplishes the task of demonstrating that this is a thing that happens.

I have no idea what possible harm you think the video could do.

EVERY one of the women I recently complimented at random social situations (parks, bar, gym, subway) ended up going on a date with me. Sup anecdotal evidence. Though I'm sure all those women were actually terrified and forced by patriarchy to go on those dates. One of the women I went on a date with might become my long term friend. You DON'T know how much good vs bad this social interaction creates.

I ended up showing this video to a female friend last night and it actually made major belarussian site new (http://news.tut.by/kaleidoscope/421621.html). The response here is basically universally: "wtf is she complaining about, this is awesome"

Yeah dude, I'm sure that's what happened. Anecdotal evidence my ass, more like silly hypothetical evidence.

[eyenon15]

Don't harass anyone on the street would be a superior message IMO

[Prince Alexander]

Don't harass anyone on the street would be a superior message IMO

Define harass.

[eyenon15]

Calling someone derogatory names - "f-gg-t", "whiteboy", "n-word", "b-tch" etc,etc

Threatening violence and/or robbery.

Following someone for an excess amount of time or distance.

I'd like to show visual evidence but I can't afford to pay someone to film 10 hours of me walking.

[Prince Alexander]

Calling someone derogatory names - "f-gg-t", "whiteboy", "n-word", "b-tch" etc,etc

Threatening violence and/or robbery.

Following someone for an excess amount of time or distance.

I'd like to show visual evidence but I can't afford to pay someone to film 10 hours of me walking.

That's how I define it too.

But apparently "God bless you" is also harassment now.

[Lyanna Stark]

That's how I define it too.

But apparently "God bless you" is also harassment now.

Why is it so hard to leave people alone? It's not that this happens *once* but that it is continuous and that as a woman, you have very few options on how to react. Like the woman in the video, you can just keep walking, at which point the person initiating may consider it rude, or the woman may have to force a smile and say "thank you", at which point she has invited further conversation with this random person.

Further, if you said "God bless you" randomly to me while passing me in the street, I would think you were either a. insane, b. on meds c. trying to be "funny" d. a Jehovas witness. This can be a cultural thing. Consider not judging every place as being exactly as where you live. If you indeed live in Belarus, you'd probably find that most of Western Europe and the US are far more progressive on social issues, for instance.

[eyenon15]

Id like to add another common form of harassment is asking someone walking down the street if they want to buy drugs or asking you if you are selling or know where to get any.

As a man(provided you aren't looking to buy or sell) there are extremely few ways to respond to that without inciting trouble.