Feminism - more of it

[Prince Alexander]

Or just raise awareness on cat calling to get people to stop doing it? I mean I'm sure at least some people might reconsider if they knew that their seemingly respectful hellos and good days where part of a cumulative effect alongside more nasty comments.

PA,

Protar has the right of it. No government action necessary. This video, hopefully, raises awarness of how creepy the catcalling captured in it really is.

Do you think idiots who catcall will watch or care about this video?

Some people may consider your random "hello" creepy too, fyi. Creepy is a pointless catchall that means exactly jack shit because so many people use it differently.

To me, this is more clickbait about how scary the world is out there, and no action or benefit to women except to demonize men in general some more.

We know bad men exist. No, this video isn't helping to reduce their number or to make them unbad.

Let's say a male catcalls in my presence and I go "hey man, catcalling is bad mmk? here, watch this video, you will realize how creepy you look." Given the standard profile of men who catcall, take a guess how many fucks he is going to give. (zero)

A national-tv shaming campaign? OK cool. Spend more money, time, demonize all men on the street and end up with questionable net benefit of raising awareness to reduce catcalling. That's fine by me, at least it's an action, not empty forum talk.

Oh, fuck off.

Sure, I'm done.

[protar]

Do you think idiots who catcall will watch or care about this video?

Some people may consider your random "hello" creepy too, fyi. Creepy is a pointless catchall that means exactly jack shit because so many people use it differently.

To me, this is more clickbait about how scary the world is out there, and no action or benefit to women except to demonize men in general some more.

We know bad men exist. No, this video isn't helping to reduce their number or to make them unbad.

Let's say a male catcalls in my presence and I go "hey man, catcalling is bad mmk? here, watch this video, you will realize how creepy you look." Given the standard profile of men who catcall, take a guess how many fucks he is going to give. (zero)

A national-tv shaming campaign? OK cool. Spend more money, time, demonize all men on the street and end up with questionable net benefit of raising awareness to reduce catcalling. That's fine by me, at least it's an action, not empty forum talk.

I honestly think a lot of people don't realise that they're being creepy. A man might see a pretty woman on the street and to express interest he says hello, or good day. He might think he's being perfectly reasonable, but if he watches this video he might see how that it could be pretty uncomfortable for that woman.

[TerraPrime]

To me, this is more clickbait about how scary the world is out there, and no action or benefit to women except to demonize men in general some more.

Let's say a male catcalls in my presence and I go "hey man, catcalling is bad mmk? here, watch this video, you will realize how creepy you look." Given the standard profile of men who catcall, take a guess how many fucks he is going to give. (zero)

A national-tv shaming campaign? OK cool. Spend more money, time, demonize all men on the street and end up with questionable net benefit of raising awareness to reduce catcalling. That's fine by me, at least it's an action, not empty forum talk.

I know it is hard for you to be objective since you admitted to "complimenting" women who are strangers to you, but honestly, this is not about "demonizing" men, especially not "men in general" or "all men."

First, it is not "demonizing" anyone to point out that the action that they are doing is a form of harassment. To "demonize" someone usually means attributing malicious intent to their actions. This is not about that. Some of these men honestly feel, as you do, that they're just "complimenting" attractive women and they do not intent to harass. But, in practice, plenty of women (though not all) do feel harassed by these "compliments."

Second, the video and the attendant commentary is about men who do those things, which as it stands, does include you. So I get that you want this to be about "men in general." Completely clear why you'd have that bias. But it's not true that this is about all men. It's about men who use sexually aggressive language and expressions on women in public spaces. So, really, #notallmen.

[mouse]

I have been thinking about the catcalling topic in a more broad social context. As a mother of two young girls, I have been doing a lot of reading about raising empowered girls, and a theme is how much focus society puts on girls being pretty. There's even an article somewhere where a woman who considers herself a feminist was horrified to realize that she unconsciously does this herself - you meet a little girl and you tell her how pretty she is. That's just what we do - almost all of us. The upshot of this is that, as a society, physical appearance is the most important thing about a girl, and then about being a woman. Is it any wonder, then, that so many men genuinely believe that calling a woman pretty on the street is a compliment? I am not talking about the undisputed harassment; I'm talking about the men who genuinely believe they're, I don't know, bringing cheer into someone's day.

On the other hand, at the risk of giving ammunition to the nay-sayers, I live in Chicago and this never happens to me. Never. I can count on one hand the times in the last, say, 20 years where I ever had a random man comment on my appearance. (It's one homeless guy that I see pretty often.) I remember it happening when I was a teenager, though.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Zabzie, I'm late to the party here on your same sex school question. In New Orleans, the best schools are Catholic. All but one of the Catholic high schools is same sex.

Most of the elementary schools are co-ed but there are one or 2 all girls schools.

The tradition here is to keep the kids together until either middle or high school. At that time parents have a pretty good selection of the "type" of single aex school they'd like. There are 5 high achools for boys and 7 for girls.

All of the high schools have at least one parner school that shares after school activities and regular mixers. By that time the kids have a pretty good coed social network anyway. Each school has a different focus and style that can accomodate most children.

Several of these schools have been delivering a classical education for over 100 years. My biggest regret was not moving my son to a boys school in 5th grade. The particular school was completely designed for active, competitve boys. Kids were encouraged to argue instead of punished for it through active debate. They are encouraged to move around the room and ask questions through lab-based science courses. They were encouraged to run around through an intense and well funded sports program. In addition, each high schooler mentored a middle schooler after completing training on leadership and mentoring. It was considered a privelege and a mark of transition for the older boys.

Would have been perfect for my son. Hell on a quiet studious child. Go with the best school for your daughter.

Thanks - appreciate the insight. The trickiest thing for us is that we are trying to find a school that would be good for two very different girls (we have twins). We've seen more single sex schools that seem to fit the bill.

Why can't we all just be loving, caring people who want the same for everyone. I understand the troubles woman encounter in the work place and such. And truly would like to see what this country was based on come to fruition. But, doesnt labelling yourself a feminist, deter from the values of that? I guess I just don't understand any of it. Because, I was once told that if something you say causes someone discomfort or they feel it sexist, racist and so on. That that's exactly what you are? I can't believe that. And can't remember who said that to me, but I felt they was just a hate monger looking for anything to complain about. I'm not saying that all these ism's aren't a real thing. But shouldn't we as human being be moving towards enlightenment? Where we are all equal and we don't have to put labels to ourselves? We're just all human beings that should try and unite under the same moral codes of treating each other with the same respect and consideration we would want from someone else? I think these labels cause dissention and further separate us as a whole. Just my opinion. Feel free to degrade it and call me a bigot or whatever. Where all just human beings, can't it be left at that?

Because we're not loving caring people living in a utopian bubble. The status quo is sticky. You have to challenge people's assumptions.

So I meant to link this earlier today, and I suspect most of us have already seen it/been involved in a big long facebook argument about it by now, but a woman decided to film her "interactions" while she walked around NYC in jeans and a t-shirt, and the result was over 100 instances of verbal harassment in a 10 hour window. Some involved high levels of physical intimidation and harassment with one guy following her for over 5 minutes.

Now one angle, and that which was covered on facebook, is just trying to convince men that however well intentioned you are, it's frequently not welcome and comes with a context of volume that you do not know.

Another angle however is that this amount of street harassment seems absurdly high to me, and fits the overall impression I have from here and other places that street harassment is much worse in the US than it is in Australia at least. Most of this impression does come from NYC/East Coast I think, so potentially it's also partly a regional thing rather than a national US thing, however I've seen others (don't want to name drop them) in other areas mention it's a daily thing for them too. Also worthy of note is that I'd say the woman in question is dressed very ordinarily, and walking confidently, so didn't seem to tick any of the boxes that are normally pointed to as "attracting the harassment".

What do others think? US Women do you think this is representative of the level of street harassment you face? Eurocommie women do you have the same reaction to this that Brook and myself have, that it's substantially more than what you see? Rest of the world feel free to chime in as well, I'm specifically interested in difference in the West and specifically the Anglosphere, hence the way I've asked it above, but comparisons to elsewhere is also worthwhile. Yes the phrasing is exclusionary in that I'm asking for women's opinions, after the mansplaining on facebook that's what I'm interested in.

I'm not surprised. It depends on what part of town I'm in. I remember in law school I used to avoid getting an ice cream by myself because the harassment just wasn't worth it. Regionally - it's worse up here than where I grew up (Northern Virginia), but that's because I think more people walk here rather than get in their cars. If you are driving everywhere, it's hard to be harassed in that way. It's equivalent to harassment I feel like I was subject to in certain parts of Europe.

Have you thought about letting them decide? Or at least wait until they are old enough then let them decide what they want? I do think that I could have gotten better grades if I had gone to an all boys school. There certainly would have been less distraction...but I would have hated my parents for sending me there. Those were distractions that I needed and were an essential part of the growth process.

There are many negative things that can happen with coed education, but at the same time there are plenty of positives as well. They will have to exist in the work place with the opposite sex, they might as well learn to co-exist in a learning environment.

They are 4.5, and they are most interested in which schools have an icecream stand nearby. This is also the biggest and best entry point if I ever want to do it. I think one of my daughters would be fine in a coed environment. The other would just disappear. So I'm trying to make a choice that is good for both of them.

Also, at least one of the coed schools we looked at was a problem for me from a feminist perspective. The interviewer asked me (1) whether I worked, and then (2) oh, well, I must work part time, right? Ugh.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I know they are youtube comments but wow have the mysoginists come out in force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhzhhYJPFEg

[TerraPrime]

Lewis' Law, every fucking time.

[eyenon15]

NYC is rude to everybody.

[Larry of the Lawn]

It's not just an NYC thing or east coast thing. When I lived in San Diego (North pb) area I witnessed this probably a half dozen times a day, and a few friends wouldn't walk around at night alone. This in an upper middle class to upperclass neighborhood where your.average house sells for $500k to $750k. So its not just a big city or east coast or shady neighborhood thing.

[Balefont]

Or just raise awareness on cat calling to get people to stop doing it? I mean I'm sure at least some people might reconsider if they knew that their seemingly respectful hellos and good days where part of a cumulative effect alongside more nasty comments.

Or, as evidenced from this very discussion on Mandy's Facebook page, the three "nice guys" defending men who are "just trying to make a woman's day brighter" said that regardless of all the feedback from actual women on the subject, they're going to continue to be "nice guys" because they are "gentlemen".

< vomits >

ETA:

I have been thinking about the catcalling topic in a more broad social context. As a mother of two young girls, I have been doing a lot of reading about raising empowered girls, and a theme is how much focus society puts on girls being pretty. There's even an article somewhere where a woman who considers herself a feminist was horrified to realize that she unconsciously does this herself - you meet a little girl and you tell her how pretty she is. That's just what we do - almost all of us. The upshot of this is that, as a society, physical appearance is the most important thing about a girl, and then about being a woman. Is it any wonder, then, that so many men genuinely believe that calling a woman pretty on the street is a compliment? I am not talking about the undisputed harassment; I'm talking about the men who genuinely believe they're, I don't know, bringing cheer into someone's day.

Excellent point, mouse.

As I said during the discussion at Mandy's FB page, it seems that the "nice guys" are distorting the Golden Rule (intentional or not) in thinking they are treating others the way they wish to be treated. They would love the attention from [attractive] women so why wouldn't [attractive] women love to get the attention? I mean, they're just trying to make someone's day a little better, amirite?

[Glaurung]

Or, as evidenced from this very discussion on Mandy's Facebook page, the three "nice guys" defending men who are "just trying to make a woman's day brighter" said that regardless of all the feedback from actual women on the subject, they're going to continue to be "nice guys" because they are "gentlemen".

< vomits >

ETA:

Excellent point, mouse.

As I said during the discussion at Mandy's FB page, it seems that the "nice guys" are distorting the Golden Rule (intentional or not) in thinking they are treating others the way they wish to be treated. They would love the attention from [attractive] women so why wouldn't [attractive] women love to get the attention? I mean, they're just trying to make someone's day a little better, amirite?

I don't know. Most of the guys I know who give out genuine compliments aren't doing it to flirt or with a sexual intent. I think we teach people at a young age that girls like compliments and this carries over into adulthood. Men also see women giving each other compliments all the time and see it as a thing of courtesy or something that may brighten a woman's day. And many women I know do love the compliments. But compliments lose their appeal when you hear them several times a day every day.

I've never complimented a stranger before, but I have occasionally found myself telling a coworker that she looks nice(in a completely platonic manner). I think some men may also give out compliments because they themselves want compliments but never get them. Society has told us that it is not ok to compliment a fellow man(there have been times when I wanted to compliment a male coworker but felt inhibited to do so)and women cannot compliment a man because some may interpret it as her being easy or overly flirty.

[Shryke]

I try to live by "Don't Read the Comments".

But some of you make that very difficult when you replicate the comments in this thread.

[TrackerNeil]

Personally, I don't talk to strangers, and certainly don't compliment strangers of the bat.

I compliment strangers all the time, but I try to be conscious of context. For example, when I tell the woman at the next table that her jacket is sharp, she generally understands that I'm gay (how many straight guys say this?) and that my words are actually about her outfit and not a pretext for something else. I also take note of the time/place/manner of the compliment, so something I might say in a crowded coffee shop I would likely withhold at a lonely bus stop with just the two of us. I always try to imagine how my words will impact the listener, and to pay attention to cues, verbal and otherwise, that the listener gives off. If the woman wearing the jacket gives me a flat look in response to my compliment, I know that my words were not kindly received and she needs to be left alone -- and that's OK. She doesn't owe me a smile.

[Shryke]

Great point, I think it's also worth noting the sub-cultural context, and the terminology and social paradigms specific to said background. In other words, I noticed that a significant number of the catcallers in this video were lower class African-Americans in New York, a subculture of it's own. Casual slang or communication common and acceptable in one subculture might be treated completely differently by another, and to define it as ''sexist'' immediately is to ignore the complexity of their sub-cultural upbringing and the communication (and reception) therein.

Personally, I don't talk to strangers, and certainly don't compliment strangers of the bat. I smile at people occasionally, but that's almost ubiquitously OAPs so as to appear less threatening (people are usually put off by the twin Sai I carry everywhere). I compliment friends; although as Glaurung notes, complimenting male friends feels restricted somehow - if I compliment male friends it's always ''cool'' followed by an item of clothing, and that's just instinctive.

No, it's not. It's pointing out that said subculture practices are, indeed, sexist.

[Buckwheat]

What do others think? US Women do you think this is representative of the level of street harassment you face? Eurocommie women do you have the same reaction to this that Brook and myself have, that it's substantially more than what you see? Rest of the world feel free to chime in as well, I'm specifically interested in difference in the West and specifically the Anglosphere, hence the way I've asked it above, but comparisons to elsewhere is also worthwhile. Yes the phrasing is exclusionary in that I'm asking for women's opinions, after the mansplaining on facebook that's what I'm interested in.

From my Eurocommie perspective: it has never happened to me. Nor did any of my friends complain about it or mention it happening to her before. A friend recently moved to Austria, and she mentioned on fb she gets catcalls "at least once, at most four times a day" among a bunch of other things that were culturally different, that she was not expected to see etc. So she was not used to it and it surprised her.

I am sure it does happen, maybe in neighbourhoods I do not tend to go, or in other cities, or whatever. But apparently way less than in America, at least judging by this video.

(Or maybe I am just ugly enough to slip by unnoticed. There is a silver lining to everything. :P )

This is a very interesting thread you all are having here, and I learn a lot from it, so thank you to everybody keeping it alive. :)

[Lily Valley]

Kara,

The Northwest US where I grew up was a thousand times worse than the south. I still get about a dozen "SMILE!!" commands a day if I'm walking around in the French Quarter. I'd like to attribute most of these to tourists without manners, but I really can't. "SMILE!!!" is especially irritating because it makes me feel like a dog that has been told to "SIT!!!" for it's owner's convenience. It is especially abrasive against the backdrop of polite greetings and short conversations that are perfectly normal around here.

[Balefont]

I don't know. Most of the guys I know who give out genuine compliments aren't doing it to flirt or with a sexual intent. I think we teach people at a young age that girls like compliments and this carries over into adulthood. Men also see women giving each other compliments all the time and see it as a thing of courtesy or something that may brighten a woman's day. And many women I know do love the compliments. But compliments lose their appeal when you hear them several times a day every day.

I've never complimented a stranger before, but I have occasionally found myself telling a coworker that she looks nice(in a completely platonic manner). I think some men may also give out compliments because they themselves want compliments but never get them. Society has told us that it is not ok to compliment a fellow man(there have been times when I wanted to compliment a male coworker but felt inhibited to do so)and women cannot compliment a man because some may interpret it as her being easy or overly flirty.

Again, going out of your way to compliment a stranger on how they look is way different than telling a co-worker they look nice that day.

[TrackerNeil]

I think some men may also give out compliments because they themselves want compliments but never get them. Society has told us that it is not ok to compliment a fellow man(there have been times when I wanted to compliment a male coworker but felt inhibited to do so)and women cannot compliment a man because some may interpret it as her being easy or overly flirty.

Maybe it's time to make that a new habit, then. Personally, I have complimented men on stuff (always taking account of context, of course), and I've not yet had a bad experience with it. Let's make it a custom!

[brook]

Again, going out of your way to compliment a stranger on how they look is way different than telling a co-worker they look nice that day.

Yeah absolutely nobody is saying 'never compliment someone you know'. A genuine compliment from a friend or co-worker etc will nearly always leave both people smiling.

Things from randoms in the street? I don't care if it is genuine or not because I have absolutely no need or desire to know their opinion of my looks. As Kara said it's not nearly as constant here as portrayed in the video (seriously I would never leave my house if I had that to contend with!) but it's still pretty common and it ranges from irritating (hey random guy I'm both busy and stressed I really didn't need you stopping me so I could hear about how you liked my hair) to just gross.

[karaddin]

Can we coin a new fallacy - appeal to the spectre of censorship? Every single fucking thing that gets brought up the anti feminists respond with "well what do you want to do about it? Do you want to legislate away being a man? Do you want to make men illegal?" (yes that's an exaggeration obviously). No. I want to educate people so you don't do it because you don't want to be an invasive asshole. I realise this one isn't just in the anti-feminist toolbox, but is popular among certain right wing sectors too... Very popular in GamerGate but no prize for guessing why.

I don't think the men who think they are polite are necessarily trying to pick up. I think they get an ego boost out of being a good polite person, and are often so addicted to this ego boost that they respond to being told "hey I actually get upset by that, I don't like it at all" with hostility because it threatens to take it away. It also challenges their self perception as being a gentleman. There is nothing wrong with doing nice things because it makes you feel good, that's the reason most people do them, it's just a question of accepting when what you are doing isn't actually nice and changing. Yes this is a generalisation and #notallmen and most especially #notallscots :p

Thanks for those that have shared their regional experience. I don't get much in Sydney as I'm tall and have substantial fuck off body language, but I watched that video yesterday morning then had an incident yesterday so it stuck in my mind. This was on the very professional street full of lawyers etc near state parliament, and I couldn't make out his words so from his tone I suspect it was just straight up abuse rather than sexual. A woman walked past be in the other direction and I heard him say something to her too. Brook gets it more often than me, but it's still uncommon enough to be note worthy rather than 10 times an hour.

I also find it interesting that the video explicitly pointed out that popular perception is that it's predominantly done by a certain race, but that didn't gel with her experience - all races did it. Yet here we have someone making just that claim.

ETA: Brook posted while I was slow typing on my phone, listen to her for her own experience :p