GRRM on TWoIaF [YT video]

[The Wolves]

So Boltons pre-date Starks

I think both houses are about the same age.

[yolkboy]

I think both houses are about the same age.

Based on what?

[Free Northman Reborn]

We don't know that the Starks did not perhaps exist long before the Long Night, maybe in another location or as a less prominent House or maybe even in the same location but without Winterfell having been built yet.

Bran the Builder might just have been the one to achieve the most momentous deeds in their history up to that point, leading the defeat of the Others and building Winterfell.

That does not mean that he was necessarily the first Stark.

For all we know the Houses in the North were all just small clans in those early days before the Long Night, similar to the wildlings, with their leaders being heroes similar to Tormund Giantsbane or Varamyr Sixskins or the Magnar of Thenn.

Maybe there had been an earthen or wood keep at the site of Winterfell for centuries, ruled by clan Stark, before Bran built the first Stone fortress after the Long Night.

The details of that time are simply too murky to claim which ancient Houses are older than which others.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Isn't it odd that all the supposed strongholds of the Andals are revealed to have carved weirwood heart trees? Hadn't the Andals supposedly cut most of them down? I mean, Catelyn in her first PoV in AGoT reflects how while they do still have godswoods in the south, with a few exceptions, they don't have weirwoods in them. Yet even at the Eyrie, the castle of the dynasty with the strongest Andal roots of all, they had allegedly tried to plant a weirwood, but it was unable to grow due to the earth being too stony. Did GRRM change his mind on this? Or are the Riverlands (bar Blackwood castle and Harrenhal) particularly devoid of proper heart trees? As is KL, of course.

The more we learn, the more it seems like Cat's account of the weirwood cuttings/burnings . . . lacked some detail. (Cat fans are free to blame her childhood maester.) Those Andal strongholds were probably First Men strongholds that were either taken or absorbed through marriage. Most of the godswood weirwoods seemed to have survived. Most of the weirwood destruction happened in the countryside, perhaps by mob action led by septons. The nobles liked their godswoods, and didn't allow damage in them. There's even a weirwood at Casterly Rock, according to Jaime. Harrenhal must have replaced an older castle on the same location, thus allowing its heart tree to survive.

The oddest situation is at Riverrun, where the weirwood heart tree appears to be relatively young, yet still has a face. Who carved it?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

For all those speculating on Roose Bolton, his weird "icy" eyes, and the Others, how do you think Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark (the lord who retook the Wolf's Den from slavers) fits in?

[Lord Varys]

I did not want to say that the Boltons are older than the Starks. But if there is anything to 'the Royce thing', it could make more sense to assume that the Royce founded the Boltons (or the Boltons are a cadet branch of House Royce), rather than the other way around, because the Vale should have been populated before th North, and thus there may have been 'noble houses' there before the First Men had even reached the North.

Brandon the Builder supposedly built Winterfell, Storm's End, and the Wall (or began the process). The latter would put him into the time around the/shortly after the Long Night, since it seems to make little sense to me that the Wall would have been built before the Long Night. And unless Brandon did not live 312 years, as Lann supposedly did, it would be difficult for him to live decades before the Long Night - especially since the Long Night supposedly lasted for a generation.

There may have been Starks before Brandon, but perhaps not at Winterfell - if Brandon truly built it. I'd imagine that the Starks/Boltons being at odds during the Long Night were perhaps the founders of the houses, or at least some of the first Starks/Boltons.

On weirwoods:

Well, it would make sense to assume that all those castles who have heart trees belong to houses founded by First Men (or have a lot of First Men blood through the female line). Many houses founded by the Andal invaders may not have godswoods or heart trees. We should also tune down the crusaders/zealots idea thing. There may have been sorts of crusades among the Andals, especially among the Faith Militant, against the Children of the Forest and their groves, but not necessarily against the ruling royal houses of First Men descent who were never truly toppled by the Andals.

As to 'Ice Eyes': Well, I referred to the colorless Bolton eyes, they are not exactly icy, but are described as dirty snow or something like that. My impression was always that Ice Eyes would have had the usual gray Stark eyes, but a very icy stare/personality (i.e. not Stark with 'the wolf's blood' but a cold fish like Ned). Jaime also thinks Ned Stark had an icy, unflinching stare in the Iron Throne scene, so that could work well.

[Syri0_F0rel]

They were kings. What's "powerful" back then? Again, you don't really know. What counts as a "war"? What was a war back then might amount to a series of skirmishes now.

Agreed. I have a bachelors degree in classical archaeology and took a college course on prehistoric Europe and found it interesting that many of the battles and 'wars' were with small bands around 8v8 or 15v15 but then usually the contest was settled with single combat. So a King back then could have just been the baddest mofo in a clan with the ability to win single combat quarrels. As mentioned above, there are no known remains of a Glover stone castle or foundation, so the Glover Kings didn't have incredible resources.

Although, many of the high numbers given for armies in past conflicts do suggest large populations and resources, or they could be exaggerated as numbers often are in ancient or prehistoric histories.

[Barrick Eddon]

For all those speculating on Roose Bolton, his weird "icy" eyes, and the Others, how do you think Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark (the lord who retook the Wolf's Den from slavers) fits in?

For me Brandon Ice Eyes Starks fits more with the Others than pale ice eyes of Bolton

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth

was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round

their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this

was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back,

stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said

they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not

these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”

And the beginning of Old Nan's story about The Others

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was

cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a

generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels.

Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze

on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale,

filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles

went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch

of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities

and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading

hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and

suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed

their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

And from what we read of Kings of Winter , the Starks did swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms conquering the entire North.

[Mithras]

I think King of Winter was a title like the Sword of the Morning. Not all the Stark Kings were Kings of Winter. Brandon Ice-Eyes was certainly a King of Winter. He basically used the winter to defeat the slavers. "Winds coming howling" is a clue for an unnatural winter which is the case for that strange snowstorm spiralling out of Winterfell during Theon chapters. I assume that Bran was (consciously or not) using that power as a King of Winter.

Perhaps the Starks learned to use the power of winter during the LN. We can speculate more about it when we learn more about the Others.

As a side note, the Swords of the Morning of old might be able to do some serious bloodmagic back in the day (perhaps similar to how Beric enchanted his sword).

[Lord Varys]

'The Kings of Winter' is the name of the chapter about whose first page we are talking in here. It is the more ancient styling of the title of the Stark Kings, and not a special title reserved for some special guys (first column, third line).

The title apparently goes back into the days when the Starks were not yet the only Kings in the North (and thus that title would have been presumptuous, and clearly wrong). More importantly, we could suggest that the Starks were 'Kings in Winter' for a lot more Northerners than just their own vassals/smallfolk even in the days when they did not yet rule the whole North, because the Winter Town and the hot pools of Winterfell would have given a lot of Northerners a safer refuge throughout the worst of winter than their own keeps and castles.

As to the Night's King:

It makes no matter from which house he was in regards to half-human Other children. The chances are pretty low that the Stark King married his daughters/sons to the children of the Night's King - even if that guy was his brother. If such unions did occur, it happened surreptitiously, I'd imagine, not openly.

[Mithras]

The reality behind the title King of Winter might be one of those things long forgotten in Winterfell like there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. So, Yandel cannot be expected what it really means to be a King of Winter.

[Lord Varys]

Such a distinction would not be forgotten, I guess. If you could only call yourself 'King of Winter' if you could do something special, it would have been known what that was, or, at least, that not everyone was allowed to call himself that.

Just as not everyone is allowed to wield Dawn or call himself Sword of the Morning (although apparently no one seems to know where that name comes from).

The Daynes are a pretty good hint, by the way, that the War for the Dawn was fought down in the South, possibly in Dorne or the Reach (perhaps near/at Oldtown - Battle Island, anyone?), and not up in the North. That could also explain why the Children of the Forest had to be searched, because at that point there would have been scarcely any Children left in the populated South. The Last Hero possibly had to venture in the territory completely under the control of the Others at that point (i.e. in any lands north of the Reach).

Up in the North there should have been plenty of Children left at that point - in the Wolfswood, the Neck, or other remote places.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Kings of Winter may have been something as innocuous as being the Kings of Winterfell vs the King of Last Hearth or the Barrowking of Barrowton.

[J. Stargaryen]

The reality behind the title King of Winter might be one of those things long forgotten in Winterfell like there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. So, Yandel cannot be expected what it really means to be a King of Winter.

But you can?

[Mithras]

But you can?

We as the readers of the series can because we are privy to the information Yandel can never have.

[J. Stargaryen]

We as the readers of the series can because we are privy to the information Yandel can never have.

That's not the case here, though. What is it you know that Yandel doesn't?

[RumHam]

Harrenhal must have replaced an older castle on the same location, thus allowing its heart tree to survive.

The oddest situation is at Riverrun, where the weirwood heart tree appears to be relatively young, yet still has a face. Who carved it?

It's possible Harren built his castle around the weirwood, but that's not confirmed anywhere. I think it's possible that he planted it for some reason, and that weirwoods growth is effected by sacrifice/the spilling of blood. Thus Riverrun's tree could be old, it's just that the Tullys weren't performing blood sacrifices to it. With all the death at Harrenhal it's weirwood's size makes sense.

[Mithras]

That's not the case here, though. What is it you know that Yandel doesn't?

Foreshadowing and parallels.

Also the TV show :cool4:

[J. Stargaryen]

Foreshadowing and parallels.

Also the TV show :cool4:

In that case, you should open a thread on the topic.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Yandel is a Westerosi. He'll always know more than we, at least potentially, because he could actually talk and interview all the people in Westeros.

That said, the theory that the Kings of Winter actually rule winter (or have some innate ice magic abilities) is not really backed by the text in any fashion I'm aware. It's a baseless assumption, and it would surprise me if it would turn out that it is true (but it is, of course, not impossible, although not very likely).