The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[LongRider]

If she moved, cried or fainted, Joffrey probably would have shot her. If you catch a wild animal in your car's headlights and it stands still, is it brave?

I agree, that going to meet Dontos for the first time was brave for how timid her character is.

Telling Tyrion she didn't want to have sex with him was more understanding the situation and asserting her POV than anything else, she didn't risk very much or confront any fear.

[LongRider]

Now imagine Mycah is captured alive and taken to Robert. What happens to him if Sansa doesn't change her testimony?

That didn't happen so that is not a valid argument.

[ummester]

That didn't happen so that is not a valid argument.

It is.

This seems to be one simple thing that Sansa apologists can't grasp.

Sansa's character has been developed as timid since AGoTs and some of the situations she finds herself in are due to her own timidness.

[Grail King]

Survival, in itself, is not bravery Grail King. I did discuss this earlier.

A person can be relatively brave if they confront an irrational risk that exists in their own mind. A person must be considered brave if they risk their safety or show courage against a rational danger.

The only way Sansa surviving can be considered brave is if she was suicidal and doesn't want to live. I don't think she is suicidal. I just think she is a very timid character. Depending on how timid she is, some things she does could be considered brave for her but not brave in a rational sense.

Besides, if GRRM said it - she isn't brave :D Readers should like her, if they like her. They shouldn't paint her as something she is not - such as brave. There is nothing wrong with liking people who are not brave but I think there is something wrong with lying to yourself about what the people are.

I totally disagree, and as far as brave she has a different sort of bravery or courage ( not like her siblings ) umm like GRRM had Brienne say : “No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don’t know . . . a kind of woman’s courage.” this is what Sansa has, her Armour and skills aren't for physical battle, it's more geared to the political arena where she will need to think or manipulate ahead of others.

― George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

[cocoalover1956]

Now imagine Mycah is captured alive and taken to Robert. What happens to him if Sansa doesn't change her testimony?

Assuming Mycha was returned after Lady was killed like canon but alive, I'm honestly not sure what Sansa would say. (Or even be around to say anything. IIRC she went back to her room immediately after the trial). Later she blames Mycha along with Arya for Lady's death, but we don't know exactly when she adopted that line of thinking. She's not vindictive by nature, so I strongly doubt she'd want him to die. Actually seeing him helpless and afraid for his life would stir a lot of pity in her but she would also be very afraid to say anything against the Lannisters - and she especially doesn't want to anger Joffrey by defending Mycha.

That said, I doubt Sansa's word would change anything. Sansa initially said that she didn't remember, so claiming one thing or another wouldn't sound very credible. Cersei was ready to have Arya maimed and had Lady killed even though she was undeniably innocent. Mycha wouldn't last long anyway with Cersei and Joffrey out for blood.

[Grail King]

Fighting fear is bravery. Survival may or may not require bravery. If I suffer a traffic accident and doctors save my life, I would have survived a traffic accident, but not due bravery but due the doctors.

And at no point her life was at risk during those events. As you perfectly read, I didn't say she wasn't brave, I said her survival depended on other people, not on her.

Not the same as being a POW, and she still had to make the decision and take that first step down the mountain, she could at anytime freeze and turn tale but she didn't, she put her trust in someone to get her out, yes she landed with LF but; who had a crystal ball in Westeros in the last 15 years to see LF manipulations?

She is at least 1500 miles closer to her goal then she was in KL.

[ummester]

I totally disagree, and as far as brave she has a different sort of bravery or courage ( not like her siblings ) umm like GRRM had Brienne say : “No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don’t know . . . a kind of woman’s courage.” this is what Sansa has, her Armour and skills aren't for physical battle, it's more geared to the political arena where she will need to think or manipulate ahead of others.

― George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

I would agree that Cat is a fairly close character to Sansa in terms of bravery resilience and it is Cat's children that make her strong, her maternal instincts that make her brave resilient. Sansa has neither of those yet, though she may be showing some maternal instinct for SweetRobin in Feast.

The definition of what bravery is however, should not be up for debate. We should not be able to shift the meaning of a word to suit emotional requirements we want to cater for, rather we should find the right word that caters for the emotions we are trying to express.

Sansa is timid but resilient, much the same as her mother.

[the trees have eyes]

Fate put a young attractive female who may well have been pumping out "Get me pregnant" pheremones at the time into Tyrion's bed under circumstances where he was expected, as duty to sovereign and family, to have sex with her, and she with him, again as a duty performed, and his body "stood up and took notice".

This does not make him a rapist, a child molester, or a monster.

(especially considering that he did not force himself on her)

It makes him human and male.

Being a dwarf and/or having an unattractive face does not mean he can't be those two things, or that he should be ashamed of being those two things, nor does it mean he's a terrible person for expecting sex to be part of marriage at some point.

Pretty much this.

The key part is that he is as scared as she is, scared of mockery and humiliation (why he refuses the bedding and blurts out the threat to geld Joffrey) and scared of humiliation and rejection in the bedchamber. It's why he gets so drunk. He is as prepared to do his duty as Sansa on their wedding night and yes he has a boner, but when he recognises her fear and aversion, he attempts to reassure her. When that backfires he offers her a guarantee that he won't consummate the marriage until she is ready. The "never" is the rejection he feared, not because he wants to be with her but because its hard having his worthless status confirmed and his olive branch and attempts at reassurance rebuffed. But truth can be painful.

Interestingly what seals Sansa's rejection is her realisation that he is afraid and is trying to muster his courage and have her accept his shortcomings. "Pity is the death of desire" is I think the line that GRRM uses to move her mental state from reluctant acceptance ("Should she open her legs now?" was her thinking shortly before this) to active but still polite(!) refusal.

And he is as good as his word. He keeps his distance and never treats her with anything but formal courtesy after their wedding night. Despite his father's mockery and pressure to get on with breeding an heir.

I don't see them together at all. The marriage is a paper shield for Sansa to avoid being shanghaied into another match for Winterfell (Harry the Heir being the latest plot) and I can quite see her understanding its worth as a protection (as long as Tyrion is half the world away and on the run) and objecting to any annulment of her marriage to free her up to marry (F)Aegon as well. I think there will be another twist in their story but not that their marriage will become real.

[Grail King]

I would agree that Cat is a fairly close character to Sansa in terms of bravery resilience and it is Cat's children that make her strong, her maternal instincts that make her brave resilient. Sansa has neither of those yet, though she may be showing some maternal instinct for SweetRobin in Feast.

The definition of what bravery is however, should not be up for debate. We should not be able to shift the meaning of a word to suit emotional requirements we want to cater for, rather we should find the right word that caters for the emotions we are trying to express.

Sansa is timid but resilient, much the same as her mother.

I disagree, Sansa lost her timidness the second she saw her father's head on a spike, and told Joffry that maybe her brother would give her his head, almost everything else after that is a game face.

[cocoalover1956]

Nothing about Sansa's thoughts or behavior before being placed in a life-threatening situation suggests that she's timid by nature. Not as bold and outgoing as Arya, but not really timid either. Keeping your head down to avoid provoking your captors is smart survival strategy, and it's served her well.

[juanml82]

I would agree that Cat is a fairly close character to Sansa in terms of bravery resilience and it is Cat's children that make her strong, her maternal instincts that make her brave resilient. Sansa has neither of those yet, though she may be showing some maternal instinct for SweetRobin in Feast.

The definition of what bravery is however, should not be up for debate. We should not be able to shift the meaning of a word to suit emotional requirements we want to cater for, rather we should find the right word that caters for the emotions we are trying to express.

Sansa is timid but resilient, much the same as her mother.

Sansa has shown bravery, for instance during the descend from the Eyre. It's just that her bravery wasn't required to survive the Red Keep because, until the moment Tywin Lannister was killed, her life was never in danger

[ummester]

Sansa has shown bravery, for instance during the descend from the Eyre. It's just that her bravery wasn't required to survive the Red Keep because, until the moment Tywin Lannister was killed, her life was never in danger

Oh for sure but that is the kind of bravery that is relative to an individuals timidness, or bravery level. It is not something that would be considered universally brave - or truly brave.

For something to be truly brave the threat must be rational - tangible and not in the individual's mind.

That's why I used the example of the non-venomous spider. Most people would be afraid to touch it, even if they knew it was non-venomous and touching it would be brave relative to the minds of most people. Yet touching a non-venomous spider requires no true, or absolute bravery because there is never any risk or threat in doing so. If the spider stays there when you touch it, the spider is being more brave, in the absolute sense, than you are :D

You can't use the absolute sense of Sansa being in no danger when Tywin was alive to define her bravery in one instance and then the relative sense of her perceiving a threat in the Eyre chair lift in the next instance, without presenting an inconsistent argument. Yes, I know people (both posters IRL and characters in ASoIaF) are hypocritical and inconsistent by nature. This doesn't mean that when discussing characters on their relevance to human nature we shouldn't try and rise above the hypocrisy that exists in it/them.

[cocoalover1956]

Remind me again why we're arguing over whether or not Sansa is brave?

[ummester]

Remind me again why we're arguing over whether or not Sansa is brave?

To generate an absolute definition of her character, that supersedes any posters opinion so that an absolute understanding of the Tyrion/Sansa relationship can be attained, agreed on by all, and the whole argument put to bed.

I know, it's a lot to expect from people for them to see an absolute common ground and agree - but it's fun to try :D

[ARYa_Nym]

Rodrik Cassel did not try to argue that they were, just that "Roose Bolton might not see it that way". Robb thought that the legality of Sansa's marriage could not be denied (too bad Maester Luwin was not alive and there to talk to him), but he planned to solve that problem by decapitating Tyrion. And the northern clansmen didn't care either way about the legality of Ramsay/"Arya", they just wanted to save "Ned's little girl". Even Stannis doesn't seem to argue that the marriage should be upheld (and I bet he never called Arya "Lady Bolton", since that didn't suit his agenda, but would ruin his chances with the clansmen.)

I don't think he doesn't call her Lady Bolton because he wants the clansmen. It has more to do with Ramsay himself which is different than Tyrion's situation. Stannis won't even call Ramsay a Bolton nevermind her.

"Who is coming? Bolton?"

"Lord Ramsay," Theon hissed. "The son, not the father. You must not let him take him. Roose... Roose is safe within the walls of Winterfell with his fat new wife. Ramsay is coming."

"Ramsay Snow, you mean. The Bastard."

"Never call him that!" Spittle sprayed from Theon's lips. "Ramsay Bolton, not Ramsay Snow, never Snow, never, you have to remember his name, or he will hurt you."

"He is welcome to try. Whatever name he goes by."

Even in TWoW he still refers to Ramsay as a Snow and a Bastard so if he was going to start calling her anything it would be Snow not Bolton. But a Stark has more prestige than Snow and in the mind's of many a member of a great house marrying a bastard is beneath them. There are Northmen who also don't acknowledge that Ramsay is a Bolton.

Stannis' is working on the belief that a bastard (Tommen) can't legitimize another bastard and thus it is not legal and he is still Snow.

[juanml82]

Oh for sure but that is the kind of bravery that is relative to an individuals timidness, or bravery level. It is not something that would be considered universally brave - or truly brave.

For something to be truly brave the threat must be rational - tangible and not in the individual's mind.

That's why I used the example of the non-venomous spider. Most people would be afraid to touch it, even if they knew it was non-venomous and touching it would be brave relative to the minds of most people. Yet touching a non-venomous spider requires no true, or absolute bravery because there is never any risk or threat in doing so. If the spider stays there when you touch it, the spider is being more brave, in the absolute sense, than you are :D

You can't use the absolute sense of Sansa being in no danger when Tywin was alive to define her bravery in one instance and then the relative sense of her perceiving a threat in the Eyre chair lift in the next instance, without presenting an inconsistent argument. Yes, I know people (both posters IRL and characters in ASoIaF) are hypocritical and inconsistent by nature. This doesn't mean that when discussing characters on their relevance to human nature we shouldn't try and rise above the hypocrisy that exists in it/them.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. If someone is in the middle of a mountain, at the edge of a cliff and without any sort of railing, sees an epileptic child about to have a seizure and, fully aware that grabbing him might cause her to fall to her death, and yet still grabs the child and takes it to safety, that person is brave.

If a person knows the she'll be beaten the crap out by strong men with mailed fists if she's discovered planning an escape, and still goes, that person is brave. It's not a matter of individual timidness. There is a perfectly justified fear, there is the chance of death (at the mountain) or pain and harm (at the Red Keep) and that person still goes on. That's bravery, and there is no way around it.

What I'm arguing is that neither her actions nor her bravery saved her life at the Red Keep because her life was never in danger, and that was due the actions of other people Sansa had no control over. Namely, Robb, Theon, Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister.

[ummester]

I think we're misunderstanding each other. If someone is in the middle of a mountain, at the edge of a cliff and without any sort of railing, sees an epileptic child about to have a seizure and, fully aware that grabbing him might cause her to fall to her death, and yet still grabs the child and takes it to safety, that person is brave.

If a person knows the she'll be beaten the crap out by strong men with mailed fists if she's discovered planning an escape, and still goes, that person is brave. It's not a matter of individual timidness. There is a perfectly justified fear, there is the chance of death (at the mountain) or pain and harm (at the Red Keep) and that person still goes on. That's bravery, and there is no way around it.

What I'm arguing is that neither her actions nor her bravery saved her life at the Red Keep because her life was never in danger, and that was due the actions of other people Sansa had no control over. Namely, Robb, Theon, Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister.

Well, I agree with your argument, just not your assessment of bravery.

Going on doesn't make someone brave. What, next we'll all be brave for getting up in the morning and going to work - because you know, we're going on, we're struggling through our lives which makes us all special and brave in our own way. 'Life isn't a song, sweetling' would translate into to the modern words 'Life isn't a motivational poster, you precious gits'.

[cocoalover1956]

Well, I agree with your argument, just not your assessment of bravery.

Going on doesn't make someone brave. What, next we'll all be brave for getting up in the morning and going to work - because you know, we're going on, we're struggling through our lives which makes us all special and brave in our own way. 'Life isn't a song, sweetling' would translate into to the modern words 'Life isn't a motivational poster, you precious gits'.

Well, I disagree with that completely. I do think some people are brave for going on and surviving terrible situations.

[Pod The Impaler]

Oh for sure but that is the kind of bravery that is relative to an individuals timidness, or bravery level. It is not something that would be considered universally brave - or truly brave.

For something to be truly brave the threat must be rational - tangible and not in the individual's mind.

Well, look at it this way. She has no inherent way to fight back either. She's less able in that department than Tyrion. What's she going to do - slap Joffrey?

I can point out that her telling Margaery and Olenna the truth about Joffrey was - is Sansa's non-battle context - brave. Denouncing the king in such a way is treason, and hostage or not, is a way to get your head on the chopping block. She saw others get killed or maimed for less than that, and the Tyrells were allies of Joffrey. She risked her life by telling them that Joffrey was a monster, because if that backfires, she risks being killed, maimed, tortured or even raped at Joffrey's hands. (He was too sadistic and stupid to care what it meant to House Lannister if he harmed her in that way; he only barely restrained himself from hurting her as it was.)

So, in terms of risks, she took some, if that's what you need to see.

[ummester]

I can point out that her telling Margaery and Olenna the truth about Joffrey was - is Sansa's non-battle context - brave.

Yes, that was brave from her perspective, I agree.

I've never said that Sansa can't be brave relative to her situation and timid characterization, only that painting her as a brave character does not align with any broad average or tangible concept of bravery.