The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[ummester]

No. As soon as she had a choice, she tried to convince herself into having sex with him. That's the part where Tyrion already looks like he won't rape her and she tells herself she has to find Tyrion's beauty. After that, Tyrion tells her he'll wait until she wants him and only then she finally says that part of "what if I never want you?".

Which is even more tragic, come to think of it.

That is true. This is part of why I say Tyrion treated her better than others in her arc.

Tyrion was sympathetic with how tragic a little bird trapped in it's cage is. Where Sandor idealizes a type of 'beauty' onto Sansa, Tyrion was more aware of the reality. I guess watching the little bird offer itself up to you would make you aware of that reality, though.

Sansa is far more tragic than she is a thing of beauty - exactly like a canary in a cage, deprived of its freedom, there is nothing beautiful about it on a higher level. This is why I am sure she will make it to the end :D

[Le Cygne]

That's hilarious. She's not trying to overcome his objections. :lol:

She's playing him. Here are the moves:

Sansa: Courtesy armor

Tyrion: Offers to postpone the rape until she knows him better

Sansa: Not good enough. Goes for more. Shows him - with a look of complete and utter revulsion at the thought of rape in the future - her response

Tyrion: Offers to wait until she wants him

Sansa: Goes for more. NEVER

Tyrion: I'll bang whores (of course, he keeps bothering her after that, "why won't he leave me be")

[juanml82]

That's hilarious. She's not trying to overcome his objections. :lol:

She's playing him. Here are the moves:

Sansa: Courtesy armor

Tyrion: Offers to postpone the rape until she knows him better

Sansa: Not good enough. Goes for more. Shows him - with a look of complete and utter revulsion at the thought of rape in the future - her response

Tyrion: Offers to wait until she wants him

Sansa: Goes for more. NEVER

Tyrion: I'll bang whores (of course, he keeps bothering her after that, "why won't he leave me be")

Playing him? Would you like to read the entire books instead of cherrypicking the lines you like before laughing?

She is not saying "Wait, I'm going to try to find your beauty". She's thinking it. Telling herself to find his beauty. Now, unless GRRM has tricked us and Sansa is a secret painter planning on making an impressive oil painting of the naked dwarf, then she's telling herself to find his beauty in order to find the willpower to fuck him. What kind of "move" is "find his beauty"?

[ummester]

That's hilarious. She's not trying to overcome his objections. :lol:

She's playing him. Here are the moves:

Sansa: Courtesy armor

Tyrion: Offers to postpone the rape until she knows him better

Sansa: Not good enough. Goes for more. Shows him - with a look of complete and utter revulsion at the thought of rape in the future - her response

Tyrion: Offers to wait until she wants him

Sansa: Goes for more. NEVER

Tyrion: I'll bang whores (of course, he keeps bothering her after that, "why won't he leave me be")

But Le Cygne - that is a pretty tragic way to play. She is still playing from inside the cage of her own head, using courtsey armor as some kind of deception to avoid rape, just finding the right song to sing at a given point in time. Where is her strength? Where is her resolve to take her own life into her own hands in that interplay above? Where is Sansa being Sansa?

[Le Cygne]

You missed the story.

Her move was spelled out in the first sentence of the paragraph: LOOK AT HIM

She's awesome. She got out of a really bad situation, with courage and dignity, and using her wits.

[juanml82]

You missed the story.

Her move was spelled out in the first sentence of the paragraph: LOOK AT HIM

She's awesome. She got out of a really bad situation, with courage and dignity, and using her wits.

You've missed what comes immediately afterwards. It says: "Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, at all of him, Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try."

Now, why would she be trying to find his beauty if she's trying to play him?

[RavenKing23]

And right before that we have this passage

She's trying to find his beauty to overcome his objections

You forgot to bold the part where she says how she never would want him.

[ummester]

You missed the story.

Her move was spelled out in the first sentence of the paragraph: LOOK AT HIM

She's awesome. She got out of a really bad situation, with courage and dignity, and using her wits.

If 'Look at him' is the guiding reason for the courage, dignity and wits - then I'm sorry, I find them all based on something that undermines them. It's not dignified or brave to act coy in a way to subvert a situation to your desired conclusions, it is deceptive. If Sansa was dignified and brave, she would not have used courtesy armor, she would just have told Tyrion that he was too ugly for her to ever want to sleep with, end of story.

I don't hold her decisions against her, they are hers to make. I find it tragic that she always has to be such a meek little bird about how she makes them.

[juanml82]

You forgot to bold the part where she says how she never would want him.

Which comes after she fails to convince herself otherwise

[RavenKing23]

If 'Look at him' is the guiding reason for the courage, dignity and wits - then I'm sorry, I find them all based on something that undermines them. It's not dignified or brave to act coy in a way to subvert a situation to your desired conclusions, it is deceptive. If Sansa was dignified and brave, she would not have used courtesy armor, she would just have told Tyrion that he was too ugly for her to ever want to sleep with, end of story.

I don't hold her decisions against her, they are hers to make. I find it tragic that she always has to be such a meek little bird about how she makes them.

Le cygne was right, you did miss the story. Sansa tells him she will never want him, what more do you want?

[Le Cygne]

Le cygne was right, you did miss the story. Sansa tells him she will never want him, what more do you want?

They missed it by a mile.

[ummester]

Le cygne was right, you did miss the story. Sansa tells him she will never want him, what more do you want?

I want Sansa to be a strong enough character to tell people what she wants without playing games and singing the songs others want to hear, or for people to actualize that it is not brave to assert what you want with deception.

Let's just say courtesy armor is like actual armor - a form of protection.

If one knight is bare chested and the other is wearing armor, the one wearing armor is fighting the fight from a less 'brave' position. Now, you can say the one without armor is a fool, that's true. But it still doesn't make the one with armor brave.

Brienne is brave. Arya is brave. Arriane (for a non warrior example) is brave. Cersie (even though she's kind of demented) can be brave. Sansa does not act like any of these characters.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, because "Never" was the song Tyrion wanted to hear. After that look of complete and utter revulsion.

[ummester]

Yes, because "Never" was the song Tyrion wanted to hear. After that look of complete and utter revulsion.

Well I'm sure he got the message by the end and I'm sure he was aware of how he looked. He may not of wanted to hear it - but telling him straight up is a lot more brave than dancing around the issue.

And it would have been hilarious to see the flow on story from the issue being put out in the open :D

Tywin - have you knocked your wife up yet?

Tyrion - she told me I was too ugly to breed with.

Tywin - here is a sack to put over your head son, go and do your duty for our family.

[RavenKing23]

I want Sansa to be a strong enough character to tell people what she wants without playing games and singing the songs others want to hear, or for people to actualize that it is not brave to assert what you want with deception.

Let's just say courtesy armor is like actual armor - a form of protection.

If one knight is bare chested and the other is wearing armor, the one wearing armor is fighting the fight from a less 'brave' position. Now, you can say the one without armor is a fool, that's true. But it still doesn't make the one with armor brave.

I really need to know how to do those facepalm emoticons. Your analogy makes no sense and please describe to me a way for Sansa to be 'strong' without getting killed. I mean, its not like she was a prisoner or got the shit beaten out of her on a regular basis or had her family killed off or married with a dagger hanging over her head or anything like that.

[MindLikeWarp]

If someone tied me to a chair and forced me to listen to every album by a band I don't really care for, does that make me a fan? The legality of their marriage is actually pretty shaky. It was done without her consent, without the consent of her family, under the threat of violence (vows by swordpoint are not considered valid), and was unconsummated.

If the definition of fan is "a person who listens to a band's music for more than an hour", then yes you would be a fan, regardless of how you feel. Sansa was forced into it, but that doesn't change the reality, that she is his wife.

Until he dies or the Faith annuls it, Sansa is Tyrion's wife. A wife can want and try to kill her husband, but it is still his wife until death or the appointed societal body says otherwise. He can't just decide she isnt any more than Sansa can decide Tyrion isn't her husband.

[ummester]

I really need to know how to do those facepalm emoticons. Your analogy makes no sense and please describe to me a way for Sansa to be 'strong' without getting killed. I mean, its not like she was a prisoner or got the shit beaten out of her on a regular basis or had her family killed off or married with a dagger hanging over her head or anything like that.

I offered female character examples that show bravery in an edit afterward RavenKing23. All of them do risk death, it is true. But that is part of bravery in the ASoIaF universe.

[RavenKing23]

I offered female character examples that show bravery in an edit afterward RavenKing23. All of them do risk death, it is true. But that is part of bravery in the ASoIaF universe.

And Sansa surviving KL isn't?

[ummester]

And Sansa surviving KL isn't?

I wouldn't call surviving brave, what's the alternative? She navigated by trying to decrease peril whilst avoiding any risky moves, even when they were presented as opportunity to her.

[Annara Snow]

No. As soon as she had a choice, she tried to convince herself into having sex with him. That's the part where Tyrion already looks like he won't rape her and she tells herself she has to find Tyrion's beauty. After that, Tyrion tells her he'll wait until she wants him and only then she finally says that part of "what if I never want you?".

Which is even more tragic, come to think of it.

As soon as she had some kind of a choice (i.e. to not have sex with Tyrion immediately, but to presumably have sex with him some indefinite time in the future), she seriously considers these choices and takes a good look at him for the first time that night - and makes the choice of not wanting to have sex with him, and goes one step further and tells Tyrion his assumption is wrong and that she may never want him. And that's at the point when Sansa believed that (barring the chance that Dontos actually turns out to be capable and serious enough and gets her out of KL) she would probably be stuck in King's Landing, married to Tyrion, for the rest of her life, and never had a chance to marry/have sex with anyone else. She had good reasons to try to "find this beauty" in Tyrion.

She didn't have to consider her choices previously, because nothing depended on her. She expected to be raped and have no choice at all.

You make it sound as if he told her she was free to leave KL and go to her family, or will be at some time in the future. That was never even an option that occurred to him.

Now, if Sansa had told Dontos: "Ser, I must return this hairnet. I don't want to leave King's Landing anymore. I have a duty to my husband", then the idea of her being "dutiful" and wanting to "honor" her forced marriage for some reason, would hold some water. But she didn't, and she very much wanted to escape KL, Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion and her marriage all that time, if only she got a chance to. Or if Sansa felt and thought, at any point since escaping KL, "But my duty is to be a good wife to my husband Tyrion!", then this idea could also hold some water. But since Sansa only feels relieved from escaping something she thinks of as "mockery of a marriage", thinks of it as something from the past she's well rid of, feels absolutely no sense of "duty" to live with Tyrion or have sex with him if she meets him again, and only uses her marriage as an excuse to avoid other marriages, while feeling sick and tired of all those political marriages imposed on her - the idea that Sansa feels "duty" to "honor" her forced marriage to Tyrion is utter bullshit with no support in the text.