The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[David Selig]

Oh her - she makes Tyrion a fool. She is proof positive that Tyrion can't get over his father issues, the face he was born with and all sorts of things. Tysha as a character is a non entity to me - she is just a plot point in Tyrion's arc, which makes me like him less. I actually think the show handled that whole thing better with Shae - i don't know hat Martin was trying to prove saying that Tysha was a commoner who actually wanted to marry Tyrion, that Tywin related to being a whore and Tyrion lied to Jamie about killing Joffrey over - that felt like conviluted and silly writing after seeing the show :D

But Shae twice refusing a fortune to go away from Tyrion, aka God's Gift to Women, because she just loved him so much even though she knew any long term relationship was impossible, wasn't convoluted and silly writing, right?

[Le Cygne]

Oh her - she makes Tyrion a fool. She is proof positive that Tyrion can't get over his father issues, the face he was born with and all sorts of things. Tysha as a character is a non entity to me - she is just a plot point in Tyrion's arc, which makes me like him less.

A nonentity. That's how you describe Sansa - just a plot point in Tyrion's arc. Some day she'll appreciate him.

Seems like Tyrion rather liked Tysha, though. Seems odd to argue for several pages for Tyrion to be with Sansa - who doesn't want him - but not the one he's thinking about like this, over and over again, throughout the last book:

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage... M’lord would prefer his wife. M’lord would prefer a girl named Tysha... Tyrion thought of Tysha... He remembered the first time with Tysha as well. She did not know how, no more than I did. We kept bumping our noses, but when I touched her tongue with mine she trembled.... I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? I want to go back to our cottage, to the way it was when we were man and wife.... His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife... He wondered how much his father had hurt when the quarrel punched through his groin, what Shae had felt as he twisted the chain around her lying throat, what Tysha had been feeling as they raped her... Looking for his silver queen. Looking for Daenerys, willing the ship to sail faster. Well, I might do the same if Tysha waited in Meereen... Tysha was the only one who ever loved me... Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

[ummester]

But Shae twice refusing a fortune to go away from Tyrion, aka God's Gift to Women, because she just loved him so much even though she knew any long term relationship was impossible, wasn't convoluted and silly writing, right?

Yea, considering she slept with Tywin in the end anyway, it did come off kind of silly. The show tried to paint Shae as a woman scorned, that actually loved Tyrion - which didn't quite work, because she just retreated into being a whore anyway - so if her character was want to do that, why didn't she just take the money and run?

But I guess the show had to marry up with what GRRM had written somehow.

GRRM writes a lot of impossible beauty and the beast type scenarios, always trying to make us feel sorry for the ugly dude that can't score a hot chick, or something - I don't get it - I think it's an issue GRRM has, to tell the truth. But some of the plot elements it leads to do come off kind of implausible, however you slice them.

[ummester]

A non-entity. That's how you describe Sansa - just a plot point in Tyrion's arc. Some day she'll appreciate him.

Seems like Tyrion rather liked Tysha, though. Seems odd to argue for several pages for Tyrion to be with Sansa - who doesn't want him - but not the one he's thinking about like this, over and over again, throughout the last book:

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage... M’lord would prefer his wife. M’lord would prefer a girl named Tysha... Tyrion thought of Tysha... He remembered the first time with Tysha as well. She did not know how, no more than I did. We kept bumping our noses, but when I touched her tongue with mine she trembled.... I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? I want to go back to our cottage, to the way it was when we were man and wife.... His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife... He wondered how much his father had hurt when the quarrel punched through his groin, what Shae had felt as he twisted the chain around her lying throat, what Tysha had been feeling as they raped her... Looking for his silver queen. Looking for Daenerys, willing the ship to sail faster. Well, I might do the same if Tysha waited in Meereen... Tysha was the only one who ever loved me... Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

I'm not the one who wrote Sansa as a non-entity, I'm just interpreting what was written and enjoying the discussion.

Tyrion has this unrealistic recollection of his relationships stuck in his head - I didn't write them either. It's like that scene where Tyrion woke Shae up at night and she was dripping everywhere, made me think the dwarf had either had too much to drink or his interpretation of his own self during sexual and romantic acts was detached from reality.

[Lord Freypie]

The Shae actress refused more nude scenes, so show writers had to replace them with something so the viewers could understand how their perfect Tyrion could end loving that shallow whore character and identify. Instead of showing them making love they showed her displaying some love for him. That's all imo.

[ummester]

The Shae actress refused more nude scenes, so show writers had to replace them with something so the viewers could understand how their perfect Tyrion could end loving that shallow whore character and identify. Instead of showing them making love they showed her displaying some love for him. That's all imo.

Show Tyrion is a lot more like-able than book Tyrion. Thinking on it, very few of the book characters are as like-able as their show counterparts.

[RavenKing23]

Well that would make Sansa an extremely shallow person, wouldn't it?

BTW - I get it, yes it would be very difficult for Sansa to get all sexually excited over the Imp's physical appearance - just putting out there that, physical appearance aside, Tyrion has probably treated Sansa better than anyone outside her own family.

What? There is nothing shallow of not wanting to sleep with someone you find unattractive. Even if he was nicer to her than most other doesn't give him free access to fuck her. And this is excluding all the family rivialry, distrust, and the fact that their marriage was vasically an act of war against the Starks.This mindset that Sansa was the shallow one is starting to get ridiculous.

[Annara Snow]

What? There is nothing shallow of not wanting to sleep with someone you find unattractive. Even if he was nicer to her than most other doesn't give him free access to fuck her. And this is excluding all the family rivialry, distrust, and the fact that their marriage was vasically an act of war against the Starks.This mindset that Sansa was the shallow one is starting to get ridiculous.

Yeah, people really need to learn that, as someone perfectly put it, women are not machines you put kindness coins in until sex falls out.

[Lord Freypie]

I'm restarting to like Sansa-Tyrion ship, mostly because how fun it would be to see the westeros community explode if Martin had the silly idea to make them end together (preferably after revealing A+J=T, getting Jon killed, making sterile Daenerys sit the iron throne and her asking her legitimized half brother to make a child to his dutyful wife so the Targaryan dynasty can have an heir also able to claim the north).

Just imagine the riot... :devil:

[RavenKing23]

I'm restarting to like Sansa-Tyrion ship, mostly because how fun it would be to see the westeros community explode if Martin had the silly idea to make them end together (preferably after revealing A+J=T, getting Jon killed, making sterile Daenerys sit the iron throne and her asking her legitimized half brother to make a child to his dutyful wife so the Targaryan dynasty can have an heir also able to claim the north).

Just imagine the riot... :devil:

No no no, the true riot-pairing is Stannis/Dany. . . The chaos would be glorious.

[juanml82]

Well that would make Sansa an extremely shallow person, wouldn't it?

BTW - I get it, yes it would be very difficult for Sansa to get all sexually excited over the Imp's physical appearance - just putting out there that, physical appearance aside, Tyrion has probably treated Sansa better than anyone outside her own family.

Not at all. Marriage includes sex , and that's a huge lot better if the other person isn't repulsive .

Tyrion isn't a friendzoned nice guy. He's an ugly gaoler

[Annara Snow]

I'm restarting to like Sansa-Tyrion ship, mostly because how fun it would be to see the westeros community explode if Martin had the silly idea to make them end together (preferably after revealing A+J=T, getting Jon killed, making sterile Daenerys sit the iron throne and her asking her legitimized half brother to make a child to his dutyful wife so the Targaryan dynasty can have an heir also able to claim the north).

Just imagine the riot... :devil:

Nah, the proper ending would be: Tyrion is revealed to be a secret Targaryen, becomes king, marries both Dany and Sansa per Targaryen polygamy, is voted Sexiest Man in Westeros, Cersei is forced to dance at the wedding in iron hot shoes, and Shae comes back to life just to tell everyone that Tyrion was totally justified in killing her and then crumbles into dust.

[Chebyshov]

Nah, the proper ending would be: Tyrion is revealed to be a secret Targaryen, becomes king, marries both Dany and Sansa per Targaryen polygamy, is voted Sexiest Man in Westeros, Cersei is forced to dance at the wedding in iron hot shoes, and Shae comes back to life just to tell everyone that Tyrion was totally justified in killing her and then crumbles into dust.

Let's not forget Tysha bursting through the doors, asking "room for one more?!"

[Lointain]

House Lannister of Winterfell and their grey lion on a white field seem... interesting.

[RavenKing23]

Nah, the proper ending would be: Tyrion is revealed to be a secret Targaryen, becomes king, marries both Dany and Sansa per Targaryen polygamy, is voted Sexiest Man in Westeros, Cersei is forced to dance at the wedding in iron hot shoes, and Shae comes back to life just to tell everyone that Tyrion was totally justified in killing her and then crumbles into dust.

Jaime also makes an apperance to say how Tyrion was always the better man and hopes to be like him someday

[LongRider]

Romance? No way ever. Friendship? Possible. Continued sham marriage? Also possible. I can see their relationship as a foundation for improved Stark/Lannister relations in the future because Tyrion was Not As Big a Jerk As He Could Have Been to her. There's resentment between them in both directions, but I don't think it's insurmountable.

I must disagree with the bolded phrase. "The North Remembers" isn't just a cheery saying, it means that the North remembers who started the Wof5K, who beheaded Eddard Stark, who plotted and carried out the RW. There were many northern bannerman of WF killed at the RW, and I don't see them as being too interested in overcoming their hatred for the Lannisters. They know the "Rains of Castamere" as well as any one and would, I think, like to see House Lannister extinguished at worst and nearly destroyed at best. Fortunately, Cersie is doing her part in that regard.

I don't see the marriage of Sansa and Tryion surviving in any way.

[Le Cygne]

Let's not forget Tysha bursting through the doors, asking "room for one more?!"

No, they only want him with Sansa, the one who thought, "Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?" and the one he in turn thought "wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

[ummester]

What? There is nothing shallow of not wanting to sleep with someone you find unattractive. Even if he was nicer to her than most other doesn't give him free access to fuck her. And this is excluding all the family rivialry, distrust, and the fact that their marriage was vasically an act of war against the Starks.This mindset that Sansa was the shallow one is starting to get ridiculous.

Tyrion is shallow also - he never buys ugly whores.

I can't really think of a character in the saga that isn't somewhat vain, or shallow - it's not just a Sansa thing, though her character did start more vain then say Arya's.

Perhaps Brienne isn't - but she still acts more out of a sense of self reconciliation then true altruism. I guess Stannis also, because he acts primarily from a sense of marshal duty.

[ummester]

Not at all. Marriage includes sex.

Only initially :D

Human vanity regarding sexual attraction makes biological sense, to try and produce the most competitive looking offspring possible. You can always try and think above this level, however.

This just made me realise 2 characters in the saga that may not be vain, or shallow, in the reproductive sense - Greyworm and Varys. Greyworm seems to act primarily from a place of newfound pride, however, that could be considered vain. I'm not sure about Varys, it could be vengeance - it's more likely a sense of intellectual competition.

[Woman of War]

No, they only want him with Sansa, the one who thought, "Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?" and the one he in turn thought "wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

This first quote is so funny, and it is meant to be funny by Martin (a joke at fictional Sansa's expense if the fictional circumstances weren't so sad)

Of course an erect penis would look, to an extraterrestrian outsider or to a young girl who fortunately has never seen one before, quite bizarre and the context would make it more threatening than interesting, the horrified yet brave child expecting pain and horror. And of course Sansa expects Tyrion's penis to be grotesque since Tyrion is ugly everywhere else to her.

Actually this quote from Sansa's POV is an anatomically rather accurate description of a penis at work. The bulbous head without foreskin suggests that Tyrion is circumcised, as most men in the US, at Martin's age and environment in family and locker rooms, probably are. I wonder if Martin has meant it so or if he simply used his own visual experience.

This anatomical onlook is entirely from Sansa's viewpoint and shows how something that can be sexy and attractive (HMMMM ... thick ... bulbous... good blood vessels .... promising! :) ) can, under those totally wrong circumstances of an unwanted child marriage, be subjectively completely ugly.

A masterpiece of what the POV structure can manage in transporting subjective onlooks (and actually a little bit funny)