The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[Lord Freypie]

Do we even know that Sansa would be in greater danger married to Lancel than to Tyrion?

I wasn't thinking about Lancel saying "would have been worse" but other, even less influencial, far removed Lannister cousins, she could have been married to, and who may well have sold her to get Joffrey's favor. Lancel had the advantage to be Tywin's nephew so influencial enough to have a chance to protect her.

That said, I doubt a bed-ridden Lancel (as he still was at this point according to Kevan's quote) would have been that efficient in protecting her against Joffrey in the first weeks of their wedding, if she certainly wouldn't have been at risk of being raped by this kind of husband.

[Le Cygne]

Huh? Tyrion couldn't protect himself much less Sansa during Joffery's wedding. She was gonna be Joffery's plaything as long as she was in KL

True. The way to truly protect her was to get her out of there.

And no, taking her to Casterly Rock to live out his dreams after forcibly marrying her and destroying her dreams doesn't count. And her mother died thinking her daughter had been raped and forced to bear his "vile children" so he could have spared her that, too.

This is a hostile act, meant to set up conflict in the main story.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

He's saying they don't belong together. He was saying it before, and he's hammering it in again, in case someone didn't get the message. He does that, he repeats things for emphasis, and he makes it clearer each time. It was certainly clear to a lot of us...

I'm still not buying it, but then I thought it was glaringly obvious that it wasn't going to happen since their wedding night. :dunno:

Do we even know that Sansa would be in greater danger married to Lancel than to Tyrion? No we don't. We actually, quite logically, claim that for Sansa it would be the same. First, Lancel, after Blackwater, was completely different man, he became extremely pious and at the moment he wasn't even capable of doing the deed, so Sansa objectively would remain a virgin. Regarding Joffrey, do you think that Kevan would actually allow that his daughter-in-law, wife of his firstborn son, is being tormented by Joffrey? He was the one who spoke first when Joffrey announced that he will torment Sansa with heads of her family after RW. So, to claim that Tyrion was Sansa's only choice for safety is rather wrong.

His marriage to Sansa is not his worst crime and I agree on that. But, nonetheless is a crime. He was active participant in what can basically be assessed as "Castamerization" of Starks. He wasn't forced and it is blatantly obvious from the books that he has done according to his own volition. So, not only that he was part of a heinous act of marrying a girl against her own wishes, wishes of her family, but he actually broke his word, a word Catelyn acted upon. So, this marriage has more layers of basically wrong-doings than one can imagine.

And, I am sorry, but Tyrion knows whose blame is for the war. He chose his family. That doesn't make him a bad buy, but he certainly wasn't innocent since the moment he started covering up for heinous crime of breaking the guest right/defenestration of Bran his siblings committed.

I actually agree that it was a crime. Heck, even by Westerosi standards he's an oath breaker now and I was furious at him for going along with it. I just find it worrying when his raping and killing of a singer and making him into stew is treated as meh but his forcibly marrying Sansa is the worst crime ever according to some.

[Annara Snow]

Arya

missed Bobono at the end of the chapter. For a lot of the chapter she is in character and not showing genuine emotions.

She didn't care enough to really be mad at Bobono which is definitely different to Sansa/Tyrion. She is the same one capable of wanting Dunsen dead for taking Gendry's helm. I doubt she was really mad at Bobono.

And Sansa isn't mad at Tyrion and doesn't wish him ill, just feels relieved she doesn't have to be in that marriage, so I don't see how that's a difference from the scene with

Mercy, which was clearly very meta (like so much of that chapter) and had deliberate parallels with the Sansa/Tyrion wedding scene (though Bobono's cock was a prop, of course... I don't think Arya would have been so OK with someone making her touch his actual cock).

[ARYa_Nym]

And Sansa isn't mad at Tyrion and doesn't wish him ill, just feels relieved she doesn't have to be in that marriage, so I don't see how that's a difference from the scene with

Mercy, which was clearly very meta (like so much of that chapter) and had deliberate parallels with the Sansa/Tyrion wedding scene (though Bobono's cock was a prop, of course... I don't think Arya would have been so OK with someone making her touch his actual cock).

Sansa doesn't miss Tyrion. They don't have a relationship where that would be possible.

I don't see making her touching him as so much different than him fondling her without asking which he did do.

[Annara Snow]

Sansa doesn't miss Tyrion. They don't have a relationship where that would be possible.

I don't see making her touching him as so much different than him fondling her without asking which he did do.

I'm not sure why you expect every parallel in the books to be 100%. Which would not even be possible, as

Arya's relationship with Bobono is that he's one of the people she currently works with; she's not a hostage or being forcibly married, he's not her husband or her captor.

A lot of that chapter is very meta, particularly

the play, with its warped Shakespearean version of the real events and characters, Bobono as Tyrion as Richard III, Arya playing Mercy playing a victim in the play while very much being not a victim in real life with Raff etc.

. The scene in question is also very meta with its obvious parallels to the Sansa/Tyrion wedding night, which are however solely confined to this scene and aren't about

Arya's relationship with Bobono - which is pretty irrelevant - or any of her co-workers.

[Jellyfish]

You may have realized by now that many fans disagree.

I think Tyrion, like any character, might be offered by the author what he always wanted most - only to find out out that it has gotten stale and that he has emotionally grown beyond it, Casterly Rock for example, easily switched by then for a remote life with a loving person and a vast library in a moderate house.

So I guess he would not even want the "old" Sansa, the tormented child who does not dare to speak up, even less than he wanted her when he had to marry her.

That Sansa neither wanted the dwarf nor the Lannister, this we have seen. Apart from that, it would have been a little bizarre to imagine a twelve year old actively going for hot sex with any man so much older, this is a pedophile wet dream to exonerate the abusers in forced or arranged marriages with child brides all over OUR world.

Sansa the little girl would have tried to play adult and to do what her misogynist upbringing made her believe to be her duty: open her legs, bravely emulating the lady if that man was remotely acceptable. Only Tyrion wasn't, not at all. But he left her the way out Lancel or Willas might not have.

If there should ever be something like a relationship between Sansa and Tyrion it would restart under very different conditions. It would happen out of free will from both sides. And Sansa would be a very different person by then, shaped by adult experiences, someone who makes adult decisions and who would for sure have to be accepted by Tyrion as adult vis à vis, on eye level emotionally.

So if Martin intends to write a Tyrion/Sansa story it would start from scratch, both being very different people with a painful history, and their interpersonal past would be part of it. If under these circumstances Sansa decides for Tyrion and Tyrion decides for Sansa would be a free decision from both sides. Simply an adult one, if the reasons might be political, a feeling of being at home with each other or something like love (if someone knows what is the precise way to define the essence of "love" they would beat Adorno and Freud together).

And if both decide to go separate ways it would of course be a decision just as adult and free. Or do you think Sansa would feed Tyrion some love potion in order to prevent him from being with Tysha or Tyrion would chain her to the castle walls because red hair goes so nicely with stone grey? This is something Martin will for sure not write, so why worry as reader? Even if Sansa decides for Tyrion it will be a fate she has decided for. Sansa and Tyrion may not survive the books in the end but within the story they will actively choose the fate of their relationship and they will have their reasons - the reasons the author wants them to have.

this is an accurate and fair post.

I also do not think that Martin will ever write a situation where Sansa will stay with Tyrion by pressure or force ( nor Tyrion with Sansa)

so Sansa wiil not be written into unhappiness, she would not be together with Tyrion if she does not want to. what are people afraid of if they argue against a common future or a short time of closeness between the two characters?

As fan of Mr Martin's character Sansa you should not assume that in the end Sansa will think the way YOU want her to think. She will think and feel what Mr Martin wants her to think and feel. And why should she be with Tyrion if she is against it, she could take a horse and go wherever she wants. So do not complain, Sansa can look after herself witout support from us fans, she has the author to take care of her emotions.

And I do not understand why posters use that

Mercy

chapter for arguing about Sansa and Tyrion. the playwright has no idea what really hapened, otherwise he would not have written about sex which never took place. he had heard some juicy but wrong rumors or the play is about Shae and Tyrion

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm not sure why you expect every parallel in the books to be 100%. Which would not even be possible, as

Arya's relationship with Bobono is that he's one of the people she currently works with; she's not a hostage or being forcibly married, he's not her husband or her captor.

A lot of that chapter is very meta, particularly

the play, with its warped Shakespearean version of the real events and characters, Bobono as Tyrion as Richard III, Arya playing Mercy playing a victim in the play while very much being not a victim in real life with Raff etc.

. The scene in question is also very meta with its obvious parallels to the Sansa/Tyrion wedding night, which are however solely confined to this scene and aren't about

Arya's relationship with Bobono - which is pretty irrelevant - or any of her co-workers.

I never said it wasn't a parallel or that parallels have to be 100%. The difference in their relationship matters in regards to how the two felt about the two different males in question.

Naturally if she likes him she would have less of a problem or not really have a problem. There's also parallels to other characters that are less blatant. Asha/Tristifer also had that we were meant to be scene and she friend zoned him although she willingly touched him later on but it was more of an in the moment thing.

“Botley blinked,, as if he did not quite understand what she had said. “You…I thought you would wait. Why…” He rubbed his mouth. “Asha, were you forced?” “….You are a sweet boy, and always were, but I am no sweet girl. If we wed, soon enough you’d come to hate me.” “Never. Asha, I have ached for you.”….”Find a brothel, Tris. They’ll cure you of that ache.” “I could never…” Tristifer shook his head. “You and I were meant to be, Asha. I have always known you would be my wife, and the mother of my sons.” He seized her upper arm. ”

I don't see it as irrelevant. Sure it has nothing to do with the parallel but imo it's pretty important in terms of evaluating the effect on everything she's been exposed to before in that she can get fondled twice in the same chapter and not have much of a reaction to it. ETA: (Plus, the fact that she was capable of missing him when she's hated some others for very flimsy reasons and has wanted to kill people in the chapter before for no legit reason. She doesn't keep any anger towards him. She has far more reason to hate him that I can see than someone like Dunsen or that woman who cheated her. IRL it would be child molestation. Speaking of which I don't think she wasn't a victim. It would be a great analogy to child soldiers in that they are simultaneously predators and victims as well. A grown man touching a child who hasn't flowered the child would be a victim in Westeros but she's also a predator in that she murders him soon after. Anyways,when she's mad or hateful she usually doesn't let it on and kills the person later or adds them to their list. Or she at least contemplates it.)

That's very much like Shae if it was indeed her that she was supposed to be playing. Because of her experience she's capable of brushing it off or not even thinking about it. That would provide more layers since it was likely prostitutes that she was imitating in this chapter with the seduction as well as the specific kill mimics S'vrone.

But anyways, this moves away from Sansa/Tyrion. I don't expect Sansa to be vengeful towards Tyrion. She's only done that rarely like with Joffrey.

[lady jellybean]

It does in fact seem that Sansa's story is heading this way because she clearly has growing feelings for someone who is ugly and not a knight. It's just not Tyrion.

[lady jellybean]

I think sansa is going to end up alone. Why cant see end up being in charge of her own life.

[unitron]

I'm still not buying it, but then I thought it was glaringly obvious that it wasn't going to happen since their wedding night. :dunno:

I actually agree that it was a crime. Heck, even by Westerosi standards he's an oath breaker now and I was furious at him for going along with it. I just find it worrying when his raping and killing of a singer and making him into stew is treated as meh but his forcibly marrying Sansa is the worst crime ever according to some.

I don't recall anything about a singer getting raped.

I do recall a singer getting what blackmailers deserve.

[unitron]

Actually, since Tywin wasn't forcing him to marry anyone in particular, Tyrion had the choices of marrying some minor lordling's daughter, or not marrying anyone.

No, he was not being offered the choice of marrying no one.

Not if he wished to go on living.

If Tyrion really pushed it, Tywin might have married Sansa off to Lancel, and Tyrion to someone else, but Tywin was going to marry Sansa off to a Lannister without a moment's thought given to her feelings in the matter, and he was going to force Tyrion to marry as well.

[unitron]

:agree: The most troubling part of Tyrion's behaviour are his acts against the women he sleeps with.

Well, let's see. There was one he was most cruelly tricked into believing had been pretending to be in love with him just as he was, so he thought, when he took her after all the guards his father had take her, that he was conducting a last business transaction with someone who had betrayed him and broken his heart for money.

Then there was another, where both knew it to be a business transaction from the start, to whom he nonetheless was kind and considerate, only to have her perjure herself to help convict him of a capital crime of which he was wholly innocent, which is another way of saying tried to help kill him, not to mention adding insult to injury by showing up in his father's bed.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

This is inaccurate. He never expected her to be madly in love with her, not for one second. Tyrion resented being married to someone who would obviously would be dutiful, but eternally cold to him. He wanted Shae's love to be real more than he wanted hers. Tyrion did not resent Sansa for his "marriage"; he resented his father for creating it, just one more way to say Tyrion was a monster who could never really have any woman's love.

:agree:

[ummester]

If Sansa is to choose who she will marry (and more so for love), I don't see why out of all men she would choose Tyrion Lannister.

Because she will work out that Tyrion was the one who offered her the most genuine kindness and respect?

[David Selig]

Because she will work out that Tyrion was the one who offered her the most genuine kindness and respect?

Good one!

[unitron]

Any Sansa/Tyrion reunion is going to start with both thinking the other poisoned Joffrey and framed them for it, so don't expect any consummating right off the bat.

[chrisdaw]

Consummation is a carrot Sansa will dangle in front of Tyrion to lead him where her political ambition desires.

[juanml82]

Because she will work out that Tyrion was the one who offered her the most genuine kindness and respect?

And he's also one of the ugliest Westerosi alive. If you're going to have sex with one single person - and one single person only - for the rest of your life and the choice is yours, why would you choose an ugly person? Sansa and Tyrion might happen, but it would be political, not personal.

Any Sansa/Tyrion reunion is going to start with both thinking the other poisoned Joffrey and framed them for it, so don't expect any consummating right off the bat.

Sansa knows it wasn't Tyrion - and she's currently hanging out with the person who helped framed her.

[ummester]

And he's also one of the ugliest Westerosi alive. If you're going to have sex with one single person - and one single person only - for the rest of your life and the choice is yours, why would you choose an ugly person? Sansa and Tyrion might happen, but it would be political, not personal.

Well that would make Sansa an extremely shallow person, wouldn't it?

BTW - I get it, yes it would be very difficult for Sansa to get all sexually excited over the Imp's physical appearance - just putting out there that, physical appearance aside, Tyrion has probably treated Sansa better than anyone outside her own family.