The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[Woman of War]

But things are changeable. Anyway, it is my prediction that Sansa ends up with a Tyrion's child. (It seems to me she lives through the end, but Tyrion probably dies - but not before the reunion with Sansa and voluntary consummation of their marriage by her.)

I think "very unusual circumstances" have been created in abundance throughout the entire ASOIAF. So...

I agree

That whole anxious question-declaration by Sansa "and what if I never want?" during that miserable and humiliating wedding night cries out that some day the author will make Sansa want.

And, sadly, I have the same feeling like you, Doublestar, that Tyrion might be dead in the end, but not before he got his greatest wish fulfilled: recognition, emotional warmth and respect. I am careful here to use the loaded word love but isn't this basically the essence of it? It is what developed between Cat and Ned, as Martin has told us.

Sansa may make some compelling or gruesome emotional and erotic détours but I can imagine her as Tyrion's lover and pregnant from him when all is said and done. And this may, height of irony, even happen after their marriage was annulled. Or Sansa may, for many reasons, have refused to get it annulled.

I could imagine any wonderful partner for Tyrion but it is pointless to start speculating here who might that woman be. What we know is that the author has already laid the grounds for a very different Sansa/Tyrion story. And we know that Martin likes to repeat story arcs under a different sign and with a different outcome.

And we know that Martin will hardly start a poll among the members of this forum to get his suitable story ending.

[cocoalover1956]

My main problem with the idea that they'll end up happy together is that it negates how reprehensible the circumstances of their marriage were. In an alternate universe where Sansa wasn't under duress and Tyrion didn't have such terrible ideas about women, they could have had a great, loving relationship, but I think there's too much negativity to start with for something healthy to grow.

Sansa's never going to forget how he supported her abusers, how horrified she was during the wedding, how he went along with the plan to use her body to snatch Winterfell. Tyrion's never going to forget how undesirable she made him feel, how much pressure was put on him to rape her, how she left him at the first chance she got. They can get to a point where it stops haunting them, but that doesn't it won't affect any relationship they try to have in the future.

[Elba the Intoner]

I agree

That whole anxious question-declaration by Sansa "and what if I never want?" during that miserable and humiliating wedding night cries out that some day the author will make Sansa want.

And, sadly, I have the same feeling like you, Doublestar, that Tyrion might be dead in the end, but not before he got his greatest wish fulfilled: recognition, emotional warmth and respect. I am careful here to use the loaded word love but isn't this basically the essence of it? It is what developed between Cat and Ned, as Martin has told us.

Sansa may make some compelling or gruesome emotional and erotic détours but I can imagine her as Tyrion's lover and pregnant from him when all is said and done. And this may, height of irony, even happen after their marriage was annulled. Or Sansa may, for many reasons, have refused to get it annulled.

I could imagine any wonderful partner for Tyrion but it is pointless to start speculating here who might that woman be. What we know is that the author has already laid the grounds for a very different Sansa/Tyrion story. And we know that Martin likes to repeat story arcs under a different sign and with a different outcome.

And we know that Martin will hardly start a poll among the members of this forum to get his suitable story ending.

I think Sansa does "want" to as you say, just not with Tyrion. She had a dream late in Feast where she thinks of Tyrion in her wedding bed and he turns into someone else, someone "taller than Tyrion had any right to be" and with burn scars on only one side of his face. And as I said above regarding Cat and Ned, Sansa and Tyrion's marriage is nothing like Cat and Ned's. Sansa's and Tyrion's was forced, Ned's and Cat's was arranged and accepted by both parties to it.

Tyrion does deserve emotional warmth and respect just like any human being, but I can't see Sansa ever really being the one to give that to him. The sad thing about Tyrion is that he could have gotten that from others, and he has inspired respect and loyalty from people many times, but he never recognized it because of his own issues. The only thing I could see between them is that if Tyrion arrives back in Westeros, and there is some good speculation that he and Dany might land in the Vale, then I could see him realizing that Baelish was behind the set up with the dwarfs which led to him almost being killed again. (Penny gave him some of that info already he just hasn't put it together.) That's twice that LF set things up to have Tyrion killed. He has just as much reason to hate LF as Sansa does so maybe they team up somehow to bring LF down though honestly I'd rather see Sansa do that all on her own.

[Lord Freypie]

As the author said, Beauty and the Beast is a love story. There is a narrative structure to a love story, and the author knows how to tell these stories very well. And the author's favorite version of Beauty and the Beast is Cocteau's version, which he's following very closely for Sansa and the Hound.

Hum... Wasn't Cocteau's version very much based on de Villeneuve and brothers Grimm's writings of the storytale, including things like* :

- the Beast is ultra rich and lives in luxury (Tyrion Lannister)

- the Beast is a prince (Tyrion brother of a queen is a bit closer to be one than Sandor son of some petty noble)

- Beauty is forced to live with the beast because of something her father has done (Joff/Tyrion)

- the Beast is somewhat shy and fails to do anything but stay silent after Beauty shows her fear (after Sansa shows her fear of him, Sandor's strikes at her courtesy armor, and tells her the main secret of his life in their very first conversation, also threatening her in a very bold way ; Tyrion unability to communicate with her after their first night is far closer to modern-versions Beast's behavior)

- when he finally speaks the Beast is gentle and courteous, and never threatening with Beauty (certainly not Sandor)

And wasn't the only part Cocteau added :

- the Beast protects her against a beautiful but evil suitor (Tyrion when she is beaten, Sandor protects her too of course but not much against the evil prince)

(* not sure for all, I've only seen Cocteau version once like 20 years ago, but iirc it's very much based on Grimm's, with just a beautiful evil character added to have some action in the end)

If you want to find a B&B version where the beast looks more like Sandor, you'll have to look at oral tradition ones, where the beast is far more monstruous, threatening and violent (originally Beast and Blue Beard archetypes are mixed in most tales, Grimm/Cocteau versions are about as true with the original material as Disney is with their own).

More on that : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89582-a-question-why-is-sandor-and-tyrion-not-a-gross-hook-up-for-sansa/page-15?hl=%2Bbeauty+%2Bbeast+%2Bsansa+%2Btyrion#entry4569241

(That said, like was my conclusion in this post ^^^ Martin's dark universe is more likely to follow the original myths than the modern expurged versions, and while Tyrion-Sansa has many elements of Grimm's version it seems Martin finds some pleasure in making Sansa negatively answers to them in her thoughts.).

[chrisdaw]

The ultimate irony will be that Sansa was married to Tyrion so that Lannisters may eventually take the North in their own name and complete a total defeat of the Starks, but in the end it will be Sansa who will use her marriage to Tyrion to the benefit of the North and her family and the defeat of the Lannisters.

[Kikajon]

I hope that, too but I am not optimistic. IMO, since Tyrion has spent decades with the whenever-people-hate-me-it's-because-I-am-a-dwarf-and-not-because-of-some-horrible-deeds-I-actually-did-paradigm, it will be really hard for him to let that go. (It's actually also quite convenient for him, so I do not see him ever abandoning this)

I agree, my hope is that in the end he IS an intelligent person, even if maybe not so smart as he loves to think he is. So I had great expectation in him facing the reality sooner or later and understanding that his attitude towards women for instance is wrong... Seeing how he is becoming a bitter and worse person instead has a bit freezed that hope.

But I still hope :)

[Le Cygne]

You could put any one of several characters into various slots of various stories, but that's not the story he's telling. And he's so obvious about the story he's telling, too. (Also, the Beast is gentle - the Hound is described as gentle with Sansa repeatedly - but also fierce - and Sansa likes his ferocity. That is about mutual sexuality.) Follow the Knight of Flowers references (= the rose), and look what she does in each case... The rose (Loras, the Knight of Flowers, and Tyrion, the Knight of Flowers in the dark) leads to the Beast (the Hound), again and again. When she thinks of kissing, when she thinks of marriage, when she thinks of sex. It's all right there, in the story he's telling, and has been telling since the first book, when he gave the Hound the Beast's lines.

And if you want to see Cocteau, look here... There's lots more...

[RavenKing23]

Nobody said she has to "learn to love" just that she has to get over judging people based on their appearances and expecting a fairytale life. Which she does seem to be getting over.

C'mon, she got over that the moment Ned got his head chopped off. Tyrion on the other hand is's till as shallow as he has always been.

I don't see how their pseudo-marriage is suppose to work, even if Tyrion somehow comes back and is completely free his reputation is so shot I don't see him living long if he gets back to Westeros. And besides if we're ignoring emotional baggage, the marriage doesn't benefit either of them. The North won't accept a Lannister, not after the RW, and Tyrion basically bankrupt the West if he honors his Deal with Brown Ben.

Most imporant part is after everything is said and done is that they both just don't want to be married to the other. Tyrion wants Tysha and Sansa wants to make her own choice.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

I can't possibly see this as a happy romantic fairy ending but that being said, its more likely to happen, than her ending up with Harry the heir and retaking Winterfell (nevermind stepping over Stannis and Rickon to take it), or the Hound (who we've probably seen the last of him which sucks because I would love to see his reaction to UnGregor), or Aegon the perfect (what does Sansa have that Dany doesn't have or even Arianne or Margaery for that matter).

I do believe that Stark and Lannister will eventually make peace through them despite a cringeworthy reunion due to the purple wedding (Tyrion's is one angry dude right now, and probably won't forget that she did leave him to die).

Considering their experiences, I would really like to see them compare notes. I can't say if they ever would consumate their marriage though.

If I hear the words happily ever after at the end of any chapter, I will throw the book across the room and curse GRRM for trolling me.

[Le Cygne]

I do believe that Stark and Lannister will eventually make peace through them despite a cringeworthy reunion due to the purple wedding (Tyrion's is one angry dude right now, and probably won't forget that she did leave him to die).

Really? What was she supposed to do? She was a forcibly married hostage, trying to escape. Maybe she won't forget that he forcibly married her. Or left her to Joffrey's devices - he was aware Joffrey was using her as a "plaything" before he walked into a room one day. She may just realize more and more, how he was "faithless," as Catelyn put it, and be less and less inclined to even grant him Septa Mordane style courtesy.

[RavenKing23]

"You've got a friend in me."

In other words: I'm also shipping Sanrion (Sansa and Tyrion).

Look at this:

"I am malformed, scarred, and small, but... abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers. I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I've proven I'm no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you."

It's their wedding night and it's Tyrion's POV. And I do hope that they reunite and become happy in a way. Circumstances in Westeros are always difficult and hardships.

Sansa's POV, "... but that was just another Lannister lie."

[Crow's eye in the sky]

Really? What was she supposed to do? She was a forcibly married hostage, trying to escape. Maybe she won't forget that he forcibly married her. Or left her to Joffrey's devices - he was aware Joffrey was using her as a "plaything" before he walked into a room one day. She may just realize more and more, how he was "faithless," as Catelyn put it, and be less and less inclined to even grant him Septa Mordane style courtesy.

As far as Tyrion knows (and he doesn't have the bigger picture bear in mind), Sansa killed Joffrey and left him to face Cersei for a crime she supposedly commited. I wouldn't say he has anthing against her for allegedly killing Joffrey, but her suspicious dissapearance hit him hard during his trial.

As for Sansa, she does not want to be married to him, but she does not have anything personal against Tyrion, in fact she even respects him as a person.

[Le Cygne]

He forcibly married her, then made her strip and groped her. The memory is troubling to her, she doesn't seem terribly "respectful" here, she calls him a liar:

The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

And the parallel to this is when Tyrion calls Sansa false.

Again, the Septa Mordane courtesy is one thing, but she has her moments, and the more she finds out, the more moments there will likely be. More like the way Robb and Catelyn, who did know more about what was going on, reacted. Robb wanted to chop off his head, Catelyn said she was forced to bear the "vile children" of a "faithless dwarf."

Tyrion knew Joffrey was using her as a "plaything" but didn't send her back to her mother. He wanted Winterfell, he said so, there was no sword pointed at him, forcing him to marry her. Sansa was threatened with the mailed armed knights of the Kingsguard. When her eyes are opened to these things, will she think him less a liar? Or more.

[Dya of Oldstones]

The only thing I could see keeping them together is teaming up to engineer Littlefinger's downfall, and Tyrion has already made at least a decent first impression on the Starks wrt to Bran and Jon...how much of that is genuine or simply Tyrion remembering his lord's courtesies is anyone's guess tho.

That being said, I still don't them being able to work out their differences enough for a mutually beneficial marriage, even politically. That train left the station at the RW and Lannister support of the Freys and Boltons created a stench rivaled only by Tywin's corpse.

Best case scenario is they can work together to try and turn down the heat on the hatred between the two houses but continuing the marriage would make matters much worse.

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

Romance? No way ever. Friendship? Possible. Continued sham marriage? Also possible. I can see their relationship as a foundation for improved Stark/Lannister relations in the future because Tyrion was Not As Big a Jerk As He Could Have Been to her. There's resentment between them in both directions, but I don't think it's insurmountable.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

He forcibly married her, then made her strip and groped her. The memory is troubling to her, she doesn't seem terribly "respectful" here, she calls him a liar:

And the parallel to this is when Tyrion calls Sansa false.

Again, the Septa Mordane courtesy is one thing, but she has her moments, and the more she finds out, the more moments there will likely be. More like the way Robb and Catelyn, who did know more about what was going on, reacted. Robb wanted to chop off his head, Catelyn said she was forced to bear the "vile children" of a "faithless dwarf."

Tyrion knew Joffrey was using her as a "plaything" but didn't send her back to her mother. He wanted Winterfell, he said so, there was no sword pointed at him, forcing him to marry her. Sansa was threatened with the mailed armed knights of the Kingsguard. When her eyes are opened to these things, will she think him less a liar? Or more.

Tyrion regarded Sansa as false because of what he knew (or what he didn't) concerning Joffrey's death.

Sansa had a generally respectful (not to be confused with loving) memory of Tyrion which was noted during her conversation with crazy aunt, she also felt a little guilty about Tyrion being condemned to die.

Of course, it should noted that Sansa romanticized a guy because he held a knife to her throat and demanded a song from (oh so romantic), and offered to take her away, which honestly refusing him was probably one of her better desicions condidering that he was drunk and holding a knife to her (what's a little groping to that?)

Also Sansa and may to be developing Stockholm Syndrome towards the guy that had a Jay Gatsby style crush on her mother and has gone to great lengths to someday get under her skirt (which might have been impressive if it wasn't so damn creepy).

And yes, of course Tyrion wanted Winterfell, he wasn't going to get to Rock any time soon, and he wanted a reason to leave King's Landing and get away from Tywin not to mention an assholish sister and nephew who have reasons to want him dead, and two of the three have already tried to discreetly off him. Tyrion is selfish, but he is a survivor, and i'm not going to fault him for not being a hero and refusing to wed Sansa (not that it would have mattered to Sansa, except maybe for Lancel somehow meeting a premature demise).

ugh... its amazing how delicate any theard that Involves Tyrion and Sansa is, because all it seems to boil down to is whose well-being does someone prioritize over the other.

[Gibzit]

isn't sansa, like 14? this is almost as creepy and wrong as cat marrying walder frey.

[cocoalover1956]

isn't sansa, like 14? this is almost as creepy and wrong as cat marrying walder frey.

She's a little younger than that, around 12 or 13.

[Le Cygne]

ugh... its amazing how delicate any theard that Involves Tyrion and Sansa is, because all it seems to boil down to is whose well-being does someone prioritize over the other.

No, it comes down to what does Sansa want. And she doesn't want Tyrion.

[Gibzit]

Tyrion dosen't strike me as a pedophile, i just don't know why.