The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

:agree: All of this, which really gets at the crux of the OP.

I love when these threads come up, because hey, let's ignore everything problematic about Tyrion and reward him with a pretty girl. Tyrion's a messed-up guy with a truly troubling attitude towards women. Let's skip over the part where Tyrion signs himself to marry a prisoner child-bride, and then bemoans her not spreading her legs for him willingly, and get right to the part where Tyrion is a horrible fucking match for her based on personality alone. His approach to their relationship is a voyeuristic one, and on top of that, he denies her emotions, demeans her nature, and discounts her intellect. Tyrion makes no attempt to actually get to know Sansa, and then becomes frustrated at his inability to read her, as if she owes him her confidence. He approaches the entire marriage from an entitled position, and she approaches it from the angle of survival. As for Sansa, she knows exactly what Tyrion is right away (with his devouring male-gaze, plus her "I feel like he's a hungry child and I have no food to give him" [paraphrased]) and finds no fulfillment from him whatsoever. He's a liar when it comes to his promises about her family, and he's incredibly self-absorbed.

This is a long winded way of saying Tyrion feels owed the love of women, and Sansa won't love unless it's earned. And for Tyrion, it is far from earned. So it wouldn't be the ultimate irony, so much of the ultimate "your life STILL sucks" moment for her.

:agree: :agree: . Plus Tyrion's thought goes something like " I want Winterfell but I want her too". He not only wants to be loved, he also wants lands and titles , that would come from marrying Sansa.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

My bad. But I like that quote. Because it illustrates Tyrion's feelings towards her.

But we are not in his head at the moment so we dont know what he is thinking at the moment.

[Mithras]

I don't think Tyrion will survive the Second Dance. I think he is already infected with greyscale and turning to stone from inside. When he realizes that, he might choose to go with a heroic death.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

If there's anyone in this story that needs to get over the idea that they deserve nothing less than to be loved by a specimen of physical perfection, it's Tyrion, not Sansa. Sansa, at thirteen, is already WELL past that kind of bullshit. Why is it always Sansa who has to "learn to love"? Tyrion is a grown man and is still as shallow and entitled as he ever was. I will hate it if he gets the girl of his adolescent level dreams while remaining the bitter, hypocritical man that he is.

:agree:

Very very well put.

[lady jellybean]

The perfect ending for sansa is someone kills LF, as his "daughter" she gets his lands and title and money in her own right. Then goes to Harenhal and starts an orphange. that way she if she marries (which I really dont see) then she will pick a man she wants. Shes over the whole white knight thing. This way she gets some say in where her life goes and has LF's money put to some good use. I hope its not sandor either, hes found peace, I would love to see him keep it.

For tryion I have to admit hes one of my fav's I would like to see him get what he dreams of. Yes the hot, smart, noble chick that loves him. But not sansa too much history. No clue who but I can hope.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Bravo Annara Snow.

[OldGimletEye]

I think I am gonna have to do a thumbs down Sansa's marriage to the monkey demon. I care too much about Sansa's eyesight. I wouldn't want her to suffer permanent eye damage by having to see Tyrion naked again.

[Kyoshi]

No, this would not subvert tropes at all, quite the opposite: it would fall firmly some infamous tropes, namely: "woman who is forcibly married learns to love/accept her husband and realize that the forced marriage was exactly what she needed all along", the variation of the "female hostage develops Stockholm Syndrome and falls for her captor who treated her relatively well and did not rape or beat her, but nevertheless did not want to let her go and kept hoping she would allow him to have sex with her in the end"...

it also fits the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope, and of course, the "popular male character gets a female character as a prize and wish fulfillment" trope - Tyrion gets a young, beautiful highborn trophy wife who wants him for some reason, and the claim to the lands that belonged to her family, even though this resolution is completely contrary to the said wife's previously known feelings and lack of attraction to said man and their marriage, and to her personal and political interests.

Guess what those tropes have in common? Here's a hint: they rarely happen with genders reversed.

Anyway, if you want someone who is overly concerned with his partners' looks to ironically end up with an ugly person - why not Tyrion? Sansa has a thing for a man with a burnt face,, Sansa was OK with marrying a cripple, and Sansa stopped being into beautiful douchbags by the age of 12/13. Tyrion, on the other hand is a grown man who's really shallow in that regard, only wants beautiful women, is ready to disregard and ignore a woman's terrible personality if she is pretty and great in bed (Shae) when he's less self-aware, and admits to himself that he only wants to fuck the good-looking women around him but isn't interested in their personality (ADWD), expresses disgust at the idea of marrying an unattractive woman (Lollys), and, even though he yearns to be loved by a woman, gets incredibly irritated with the very idea of a relationship between himself and a physically unattractive woman who is a dwarf, like himself, even though she clearly has genuine romantic interest in him (Penny) to the point of protesting loudly whenever someone mistakes her for his wife or mistress or suggests she could become his wife or mistress..

:bowdown: :agree:

:agree: All of this, which really gets at the crux of the OP.

I love when these threads come up, because hey, let's ignore everything problematic about Tyrion and reward him with a pretty girl. Tyrion's a messed-up guy with a truly troubling attitude towards women. Let's skip over the part where Tyrion signs himself to marry a prisoner child-bride, and then bemoans her not spreading her legs for him willingly, and get right to the part where Tyrion is a horrible fucking match for her based on personality alone. His approach to their relationship is a voyeuristic one, and on top of that, he denies her emotions, demeans her nature, and discounts her intellect. Tyrion makes no attempt to actually get to know Sansa, and then becomes frustrated at his inability to read her, as if she owes him her confidence. He approaches the entire marriage from an entitled position, and she approaches it from the angle of survival. As for Sansa, she knows exactly what Tyrion is right away (with his devouring male-gaze, plus her "I feel like he's a hungry child and I have no food to give him" [paraphrased]) and finds no fulfillment from him whatsoever. He's a liar when it comes to his promises about her family, and he's incredibly self-absorbed.

This is a long winded way of saying Tyrion feels owed the love of women, and Sansa won't love unless it's earned. And for Tyrion, it is far from earned. So it wouldn't be the ultimate irony, so much of the ultimate "your life STILL sucks" moment for her.

:bowdown: :agree:

That's directly contradictory to the text. Sansa is not disgusted by Tyrion as a person, she thinks he is kinder than the other Lannisters and prays for him during the BW battle, but she, naturally, can't trust him because he is another Lannister. She thinks "I don't want any Lannister" when Tyrion offers Lancel (as a Lannister who's good looking and closer to Sansa's age) as an alternative, and between those two alternatives, chooses to marry Tyrion over Lancel because she remembers him being kind to her (which Lancel was not). I'm still waiting for the proponents of "Sansa mostly doesn't want to marry Tyrion because he's a dwarf!" to explain that one. (A case of people being affected by the show to the point of forgetting what actually happens in the books?) He thinks to herself bitterly: "They made me a Lannister".

Tyrion being ugly, noseless, a dwarf, and generally extremely sexually unattractive to Sansa, gets at the forefront of her mind only when she believes she is just about to be forced to have sex with him and is immediately horrified, realizing she can't feel any sexual desire for him even when she tries to find something attractive about him to make the prospect of being expected to eventually have sex with him less unpleasant and awful. I can't believe that I actually have to defend the right of a person to not want sex with someone they find highly sexually unattractive. Much less, the right of a 12-year old unwilling bride to not want to be forced to lose her virginity and be made to have regular sex for the rest of her life with someone she finds highly sexually unattractive.

And yes, Sandor does have some traits that appeal to Sansa sexually and romantically, while Tyrion does not. That's why people get attracted to some people and not to some other. There has to be something you find appealing about someone, even though they're not perfection. Duh. I'm at a loss how that's supposed to be either an indictment of Sansa (look how awful and shallow she is for... not being sexually attracted to someone who has nothing that would attract her??) or how that can be used as an argument in favor of Tyrion/Sansa, as opposed to against it, which is what actually makes sense. I'm baffled at the idea that there is some special rites of passage or moral requirement that people must "learn" to be attracted to people who are the complete opposite of anything they can find romantically/sexually attractive. Correction: that women must learn that, Sansa, apparently, is the one character that people think must fulfill this requirement. I wonder how many people here have made of a habit of making themselves have sex with people they find completely unattractive, to show how "enlightened" they are? Nobody expects Tyrion to decide to marry Lollys, because she is the exact opposite of everything he finds attractive in a woman.

And yet he was very attracted to Sansa and thought to himself that he wanted her, even though she wasn't witty or fun, he saw her as a naive child (he saw her as even more naive than she was at the time even, even wondering at one point if she would still like to marry Joffrey after everything!!!) and she's not his dream girl in terms of personality.

Yes, I agree, Tyrion and Sansa are terribly matched, neither of them would be able to provide what the other wants (mostly, to be loved for themselves), and this relationship would never had a chance in hell of happening for real. Tyrion was never even interested in Sansa that way before he was told he had to marry her; that he even developed a desire and fantasy about her is a sign of how many issues with neediness, insecurity, entitlement he has, as well as his inability to break free of the society's constraints and his father's influence even when he thinks of himself as an outcast.

What? You've just contradicted yourself completely. What other fates? Nobody is going to be forcing Tyrion to marry someone he doesn't want. And he seems poised to regain some power soon. Sansa seems poised to finally gain some power to control her fate. What's that "other fate" that could be worse? She's not going to be married to Ramsay, and Joffrey is dead. She could be forced by LF to marry Harry the Heir (though I don't think she will) ; that's not worse than being forced to marry Tyrion Lannister.

Why the hell would they "learn to accept their fates" of the marriage? There's no one to enforce that marriage now. It can be annulled. Or just ignored. Sansa has been ignoring it from the beginning and didn't "learn to accept it" as her fate even when she was still captive in KL, and since she ran away, she's felt relieved she has left it behind. "It can be worse" is 1) probably not true, 2) a bullshit argument in the first place, designed to make people settle for bad things from fear of some hypothetical horrible things. The argument that it's important for peace is an even worse one - if there's ever going to be peace between the Starks and the Lannisters, it sure isn't going to be based on upholding a marriage that was forced on Sansa while she was a hostage, as an act of war/power grab by the Lannisters trying to lay claim on the Stark lands. And the idea that this marriage could ever be good for the Starks is a terrible one. Not that I believe that Sansa should or would accept the bullshit idea of "sacrificing herself" for her family by putting herself through an unhappy marriage where she would have to "lie back and think of Winterfell"; but in this case, it makes no sense in the first place. The only thing that's good for Sansa politically and for the Starks is an annulment of the marriage. The annulment of the marriage, with the Lannisters not laying any claims to the North, would also be the prerequisite for any hypothetical peace.

:bowdown: :agree:

Sansa isn't even in my Top 10 Favourites List, but to inflict Tyrion on her seems very unkind. And it has nothing to do with his dwarfism/noselessness/unattractiveness for me; I simply find him reprehensible as a human being.

[FireAndBlood.]

It is not a fact. It is an opinion. And it is not shared by everybody. I love Tyrion. :)

You can like a character and also find them reprehensible. I love Cersei, but she's a horrible person.

(note: this post is made under the assumption that you don't actually think Tyrion is a good person)

[Starks of Winter]

Apologies if this has been stated, I haven't read all the posts but there is one thing about this 'union' that keeps playing on my mind.

If (and its a big if) Tyrion is a dragon rider then he will be able to ride a dragon to the Vale. The bloody gate and the Vale's defenses would be useless.

He will be able to get to her without much resistance.

As to what happens then, it's anyone guess.

It seems to me at least possible, doesn't mean it will happen.

Just a thought :dunno:

[Kyoshi]

You can like a character and also find them reprehensible. I love Cersei, but she's a horrible person.

(note: this post is made under the assumption that you don't actually think Tyrion is a good person)

I know this is off-topic but I've also warmed up to Cersei [i certainly don't love her though]. Mainly because her chapters are so amusing to read.

[Mrs_Darcy]

You can like a character and also find them reprehensible. I love Cersei, but she's a horrible person.

(note: this post is made under the assumption that you don't actually think Tyrion is a good person)

I think, that it is the problem with a lot of debates (especially around Tyrion), that a lot of people think, that if you like a character (or even just like reading about him), then he has to be a good person and therefore try to absolve him from all blame.

There are countless persons in the Tyrion-threads, who insist, that Tyrion was "forced to marry Sansa" even though noone has managed to come with a quote proving it or that him sleeping with the abused sex-slave in Volantis was no rape, since he paid her slave-holder for sleeping with her even though he could see from miles away that she was not in this situation willingly.

For Tyrion, IMO this is also made markedly worse with the show, since D&D (also known as Dumb and Dumber) even make Sansa say, that Tyrion was forced into the marriage and have rewritten the whole Shae-arc.

I mean, on television there are really popular series about murderous meth-dealers (Breaking Bad) and a family arm-deep in organized crime (The Sopranos) and I have never heard people saying, that the protagonists of these shows are good people, simply because they are the protagonists.

[Le Cygne]

As the author said, Beauty and the Beast is a love story. There is a narrative structure to a love story, and the author knows how to tell these stories very well. And the author's favorite version of Beauty and the Beast is Cocteau's version, which he's following very closely for Sansa and the Hound. About this time in the story, heading into the penultimate book, certain things have been established. The Beast falls in love with Beauty, and Beauty misses him, and realizes she returns his love. That's what we are seeing in the story, all the lines, the symbolism, the beats, right where they belong.

[Mladen]

Ah, the usual "Sansa needs to love Tyrion" BS... Since Annara explained rather extensively what is the problem of this nonsense, I will just focus on couple of misconceptions regarding Sansa's marriage to Tyrion that seems that some people are ignorant of:

1. Tyrion wasn't forced into a marriage. I suppose I can't say anything about this but not to trust the show, but the books. In the books, Tyrion was goaded into marrying Sansa and Tywin never threatened him. So, to say that Tyrion and Sansa were forced into the marriage is rather wrong since Tyrion went there freely.

2. Sansa is not a Lannister. Of all sexist BS out of there, this is by far the worst. And you know what is even funnier - beside Stannis' hypocritical remark, no one, and I repeat no one in-universe called Sansa a Lannister, including Tyrells, Lannisters, smallfolk etc. Author himself wrote her as Sansa Stark never actually using the certain corners of fandom's version.

At the end, this is nothing more than a wet dream of Tyrion fans, but it is abundantly clear that Tyrion and Sansa took their separation as clear divorce. They may find some peaceful resolution. They may even stay in marriage due to whatever circumstances may be. But, the two of them will never be "Ned and Cat 2.0" (an idea that is laughable, TBH) nor they will ever be an actual real couple.

[Kikajon]

No, this would not subvert tropes at all, quite the opposite: it would fall firmly some infamous tropes, namely: "woman who is forcibly married learns to love/accept her husband and realize that the forced marriage was exactly what she needed all along", the variation of the "female hostage develops Stockholm Syndrome and falls for her captor who treated her relatively well and did not rape or beat her, but nevertheless did not want to let her go and kept hoping she would allow him to have sex with her in the end"...

it also fits the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope, and of course, the "popular male character gets a female character as a prize and wish fulfillment" trope - Tyrion gets a young, beautiful highborn trophy wife who wants him for some reason, and the claim to the lands that belonged to her family, even though this resolution is completely contrary to the said wife's previously known feelings and lack of attraction to said man and their marriage, and to her personal and political interests.

Guess what those tropes have in common? Here's a hint: they rarely happen with genders reversed.

Anyway, if you want someone who is overly concerned with his partners' looks to ironically end up with an ugly person - why not Tyrion? Sansa has a thing for a man with a burnt face,, Sansa was OK with marrying a cripple, and Sansa stopped being into beautiful douchbags by the age of 12/13. Tyrion, on the other hand is a grown man who's really shallow in that regard, only wants beautiful women, is ready to disregard and ignore a woman's terrible personality if she is pretty and great in bed (Shae) when he's less self-aware, and admits to himself that he only wants to fuck the good-looking women around him but isn't interested in their personality (ADWD), expresses disgust at the idea of marrying an unattractive woman (Lollys), and, even though he yearns to be loved by a woman, gets incredibly irritated with the very idea of a relationship between himself and a physically unattractive woman who is a dwarf, like himself, even though she clearly has genuine romantic interest in him (Penny) to the point of protesting loudly whenever someone mistakes her for his wife or mistress or suggests she could become his wife or mistress..

:agree: Very well written! I can't really add anything else.

I just do hope that in TWOW Tyrion will "grow up" and see his misbehaviours and become a better person..

I would really like reading it..

[Le Cygne]

Well, you wouldn't cast Ron Perlman as Tyrion, but George is known to be familiar with the concept of "Beauty and the Beast".

And he said he wanted to cast Ron Perlman as the Hound, go figure.

"Getting to write words for Ron Perlman was one of the best parts of the three years I spent as a writer and producer on BEAUTY AND THE BEAST. We had a great team on that show; terrific writers, a top-notch crew, and a superb cast. Ron was twice nominated for an Emmy for his portrayal of Vincent. If anyone ever makes a film of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, I wanted him to play the Hound."

[Mal Malenkirk]

She was in crash for Loras just few days before the marriage. I don't think she abandoned any of it.

Before Tyrion, she had made peace with marying Willas the Cripple. Based on how everyone told her he was kind and how it was getting her out of King's Landing, I even remember passages in the text indicating she was looking forward to it and was determined to be a good wife.

So yeah, she could work with infirmity.

Tyrion has a bit more than being a dwarf going against him, both at the time and now that he's in full pity party mode.

[Elba the Intoner]

And may come to love each other eventually. Just like Catelyn and Ned. Remember, Ned was just a stranger to her, she was betrothed to Brandon.

And again, they may not. It is possible both ways.

But Ned and Cat were not from opposing houses that were at war with each other. In fact, they were from allied houses already. That's the main difference here as Sansa makes it very clear that she hates being a Lannister (she thinks bitterly that they made her a Lannister).

Also, Sansa does not want to be married off for her claim anymore. By AFFC she is constantly lamenting the fact that she is being used for her claim and even realizes that was all the Tyrell's were after too.

[Mrs_Darcy]

:agree: Very well written! I can't really add anything else.

I just do hope that in TWOW Tyrion will "grow up" and see his misbehaviours and become a better person..

I would really like reading it..

I hope that, too but I am not optimistic. IMO, since Tyrion has spent decades with the whenever-people-hate-me-it's-because-I-am-a-dwarf-and-not-because-of-some-horrible-deeds-I-actually-did-paradigm, it will be really hard for him to let that go. (It's actually also quite convenient for him, so I do not see him ever abandoning this)

[Mrs_Darcy]

double post