The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[para]

BTW - I get it, yes it would be very difficult for Sansa to get all sexually excited over the Imp's physical appearance - just putting out there that, physical appearance aside, Tyrion has probably treated Sansa better than anyone outside her own family.

Oh no, you didn't just claim that Tyrion is the best man that Westeros has to offer Sansa, just because the Lannisters have been douchebags in their interactions with her. And it's not even true. Sansa has been not been sexually harrassed by plenty of people, even some Lannisters in KL. Even LF, the creep, has not yet groped her naked breasts and exposed himself indecently to her while threatening to rape her.

Meanwhile Westeros has characters such as Podrick Payne, Ned Dayne, Gendry, Hotpie, Tommen and Trystane Martell. Even fAegon, for all his entitlement, has not himself found entitled to a woman's body as Tyrion regularly does. So yes, Sansa can do better than Tyrion. Much better.

[Annara Snow]

Well that would make Sansa an extremely shallow person, wouldn't it?

You mean, like Tyrion, who is disgusted with the idea of sleeping with an unattractive woman and always wants gorgeous women to have sex with him and want him?

Or like anyone else in the story who is not attracted to Tyrion or some other noseless dwarf? Are they all "extremely shallow people"?

Just out of interest, what's the last time you chose to have sex with someone without a nose? And generally, do you normally go and have sex with people you find extremely physically unattractive? If you don't, and prefer to have sex with those you actually find unattractive, does that make you an extremely shallow person?

BTW - I get it, yes it would be very difficult for Sansa to get all sexually excited over the Imp's physical appearance - just putting out there that, physical appearance aside, Tyrion has probably treated Sansa better than anyone outside her own family.

Oh, that argument again. She's been a hostage of the Lannisters all this time, until Littlefinger found a way to get his paws on her. So she should sleep with Tyrion because he treated her better than Joffrey and Cersei?

And as pointed out above, it's not even true that he's treated her better than anyone else. Most people, outside of Joffrey, Marillion, Littlefinger and the angry crazy mob, and Tyrion himself, have not sexually molested her, for starters.

How did, for instance, Tyrion treat her better than the Tyrells? Yes, they were nice to her because they wanted her claim. But so did Tyrion. (Heck, Garlan was nice to her even after he knew they were not getting her claim.) But at least she would have gotten away from the Lannisters.

The list of people who did or may have treated Sansa worse than Tyrion:

Joffrey

Cersei

Tywin

Meryn Trant

Boros Blount

Mandon Moore

Marillion

Angry Crazy Mob Members

Littlefinger (arguably)

Lancel Lannister (arguably and barely)

?

You don't get a cookie for not raping or beating someone when you can, sorry. And you definitely aren't entitled to get a nookie for the same achievement.

[ummester]

Pod, Gendry, Hotpie, Tommen and Trystane are boys? Do they even desire woman's bodies yet? Not knowing what something is is not the same as not thinking they are entitled to it :D Unless that's the point, and you are trying to be funny para?

[ummester]

You mean, like Tyrion, who is disgusted with the idea of sleeping with an unattractive woman and always wants gorgeous women to have sex with him and want him?

Or like anyone else in the story who is not attracted to Tyrion or some other noseless dwarf? Are they all "extremely shallow people"?

Just out of interest, what's the last time you chose to have sex with someone without a nose? And generally, do you normally go and have sex with people you find extremely physically unattractive? If you don't, and prefer to have sex with those you actually find unattractive, does that make you an extremely shallow person?

Oh, that argument again. She's been a hostage of the Lannisters all this time, until Littlefinger found a way to get his paws on her. So she should sleep with Tyrion because he treated her better than Joffrey and Cersei?

You don't get a cookie for not raping or beating someone when you can, sorry. And you definitely aren't entitled to get a nookie for the same achievement.

I never said Sansa should sleep with Tyrion? All I said was he has treated her nicer than anyone else. I will clarify - in Sansa's story arc, of all the men she has interacted with outside members of her own family, Tyrion has treated her with more genuine kindness and respect than any others.

Sure, I agree, Tyrion fucks well above his physical station - that's why he has to pay for it - duh. Tyrion wouldn't like the thought of banging someone who looked like him, so he settles for good looking purchases. But he treated Sansa reasonably well, considering the environment and their circumstances.

[Annara Snow]

No, he was not being offered the choice of marrying no one.

Not if he wished to go on living.

If Tyrion really pushed it, Tywin might have married Sansa off to Lancel, and Tyrion to someone else, but Tywin was going to marry Sansa off to a Lannister without a moment's thought given to her feelings in the matter, and he was going to force Tyrion to marry as well.

Yes, he was offered the choice of marrying no one. Tywin had not been in a hurry to marry him off for years, he wasn't going to be now. The only reason he was in a hurry was to find a Lannister husband for Sansa.

The other brides were just a possibility on the horizon, or barely that. Anyone with half a brain would know Tywin would never allow a marriage between his son and Lollys, a woman who was "dishonored" by having been gang raped and carrying a child from rape.

Tywin did not threaten Tyrion with death, physical harm, exile, possibility of disowning him, possibility of him losing his position at court as Master of Coin - he made no threats. Instead, he cajoled and manipulated Tyrion into accepting.

[Annara Snow]

I never said Sansa should sleep with Tyrion? 1) All I said was he has treated her nicer than anyone else. I will clarify - in Sansa's story arc 1), of all the men she has interacted with outside members of her own family, Tyrion has treated her with more genuine kindness and respect than any others.

I don't think so.

The only people he's treated her better than are:

Joffrey

Cersei

Tywin

Marillion

Angry crazy rapist mob members during the riot

Boros Blount

Meryn Trant

Mandon Moore

Littlefinger (arguably)

Lancel (arguably)

Sure, I agree, Tyrion fucks well above his physical station - that's why he has to pay for it - duh. Tyrion wouldn't like the thought of banging someone who looked like him, so he settles for good looking purchases. 2) But he treated Sansa reasonably well, considering the environment and their circumstances.

If you mean that he treated her better than he could have, since he had power to treat her like shit and was even encouraged to do so by his family, you're right.

But it's also true that Sansa treated Tyrion well, considering the environment and their circumstances, and I rarely see her getting credit for that. On the contrary, many people seem to think that she wasn't "nice" enough to him. Because you owe excessive niceness to one of your captors who does not have you beaten, and does not rape you (although he does marry you against your will, grope you, comes close to raping you, and expects you to eventually decide to have sex with him). Sansa deserves more credit for having some compassion and regard for Tyrion and even gratefulness for his relative kindness, than he deserves for not treating the hostage as badly as Joffrey or Cersei.

[ummester]

The Hound had no respect for her - he thought she was a well trained little bird who sung the songs she had been taught. He didn't think she had any backbone and, by contrast, the Hound developed heaps of respect for Arya - so the Hound wasn't just being sexist, he respected fighters.

Dontis only helped her because he was a pisshead who wanted to make some cash - and he tried to slobber over her all the time.

The old lady of Highgarden and Margery just saw her as a political piece.

No-one has treated Sansa that well because, I think, the Hound was right. She has been a simpering little bird, singing a song in her little mental cage. And it's not only Joffrey and Cersie that made her like that, she was half way there before she met them. Joffrey and Cersie just took advantage of what Sansa was - knights were worth drooling over if they were handsome and brave and she would be a pretty queen one day - her original life view was pathetic. Even Arya, and I think Ned, were well aware of what Sansa was.

Tell me anyone other than Tyrion (or her family) who actually did something for Sansa at a personal risk or loss to themselves? Tyrion knew he was annoying Tywin by not consummating their marriage, he knew he was putting himself at risk of his father's wrath. Who else did something like that for Sansa - a kind act, without reward and with risk for themselves?

BTW - having read some of Cersie's memories of her youth, I think there is a very interesting parallel to be drawn between Cersie and Sansa. Cersie started with the same basic life view that Sansa did.

[David Selig]

Tell me anyone other than Tyrion (or her family) who actually did something for Sansa at a personal risk or loss to themselves? Tyrion knew he was annoying Twin by not consummating their marriage, he knew he was putting himself at risk of his father's wrath.

Sandor. Dontos. Littlefinger. The crew of his ship. Brienne (shame on me for forgetting her at first).

[Lord Freypie]

If Sansa and Tyrion had any future together (hard to imagine at this point but impossible to be sure), it would be because their characters evolution would have made them want to have a future together (because yes in litterarure characters evolve, and in the space of two thousand pages of a fantasy serie weirder things can happen).

Not because of the forced wedding, that will very probably be cancelled far before they meet again (or just after if their feelings won't change).

And in a world as cruel as Martin's nobody can even be sure Tyrion will still be the ugliest of the two at this point.

Anyway, like said Woman of War :

If there should ever be something like a relationship between Sansa and Tyrion it would restart under very different conditions. It would happen out of free will from both sides. And Sansa would be a very different person by then, shaped by adult experiences, someone who makes adult decisions and who would for sure have to be accepted by Tyrion as adult vis à vis, on eye level emotionally.

So if Martin intends to write a Tyrion/Sansa story it would start from scratch, both being very different people with a painful history, and their interpersonal past would be part of it. If under these circumstances Sansa decides for Tyrion and Tyrion decides for Sansa would be a free decision from both sides. Simply an adult one, if the reasons might be political, a feeling of being at home with each other or something like love (if someone knows what is the precise way to define the essence of "love" they would beat Adorno and Freud together).

And if both decide to go separate ways it would of course be a decision just as adult and free. Or do you think Sansa would feed Tyrion some love potion in order to prevent him from being with Tysha or Tyrion would chain her to the castle walls because red hair goes so nicely with stone grey? This is something Martin will for sure not write, so why worry as reader? Even if Sansa decides for Tyrion it will be a fate she has decided for. Sansa and Tyrion may not survive the books in the end but within the story they will actively choose the fate of their relationship and they will have their reasons - the reasons the author wants them to have.

So I don't see why people worry so much about this very unlikely outcome (like any shipping by the way).

I find Tyrion-Penny shipping a bit shocking myself, for the "dwarf with dwarf, these imps should know their place" aspect, but after reflexion if Tyrion's feelings do evolve in this direction (like there may be some little hints about), why not too.

And for all the numerous Sansa-Beautiful Guy X shippings that would smell fairytale a bit too much for my taste, it's the same.

Any character arc ending is good as long Martin decide to implement it through a well organized character evolution, and he still has hundred of pages for that.

Finally I'd find excellent news for Sansa any ending where she doesn't become the vilainous lover and accomplice Petyr dreams of turning her into, an outcome actually looking far more likely at this point than any half-positive love story for her (but Sandor-Sansa, perhaps, which looks largely foreshadowed).

[Annara Snow]

The hound had no respect for her - he thought she was a well trained little bird who sung the songs she had been taught. he didn't think she had any backbone,

What Sandor says and what he actually thinks and how he feels, are two different things. That's a crucial thing about his character, that his actions belie his words (and the nihilism he expresses). If you really think that Sandor despises Sansa's ladylike demeanour or idealism and romanticism, you've read the character all wrong.

If we're going to focus on what characters think of Sansa instead of on their actions: we may not know for sure what Sandor thinks, but we know for sure what Tyrion thinks about Sansa, from his POVs. And Tyrion does not actually have a lot of respect for Sansa as a person. Yes, he thinks she's ladylike and would be a great queen, he appreciates those qualities. But he also thinks of her as a naive child who's so shallow that he expects her to be glad to marry Lancel and - that's the moment when I realized how little he understands her - even wonders at one point if Sansa is envious that she's not the one marrying Joffrey!!!! :blink:

Tell me anyone other than Tyrion (or her family) who actually did something for Sansa at a personal risk or loss to themselves? Tyrion knew he was annoying Tywin by not consummating their marriage, he knew he was putting himself at risk of his father's wrath. Who else did something like that for Sansa - a kind act, without reward and with risk for themselves?

Brienne.

Jaime.

Unless we see "trying to uphold your oaths and be honorable" as a reward for oneself.

Out of people she actually knows, Sandor did, when he told Joffrey "Enough". He also wanted to take Sansa away from KL - something Tyrion never did (and something that Sansa wanted more than anything, to get out of there).

Arys Oakhart tried to refuse to beat her, but he was under Joffrey's power the way Tyrion was not.

Tyrion was not the only person in KL who would have stopped Joffrey's beatings of Sansa, he was just the only one besides Cersei who had the power to stop it.

If there were more people who married Sansa against her will but refused to rape her, there may be more examples. But most people were not in that position.

And I don't think it's quite true that Tyrion did not expect a reward for not raping Sansa. He himself was hoping that she would reward him by finally accepting him as a husband and willingly having sex with him, we know that from his POV.

But the entire premise here is flawed. If you aren't arguing that Sansa owes Tyrion sex or love for not raping or beating her, what are you arguing?

And let's just make this clear: the entire argument that Sansa owes Tyrion something (even if it's not sex and/or love) is predicated on the premise that a hostage needs to develop Stockholm Syndrome for any captors who don't treat them terribly, and that not developing Stockhom Syndrome is a character flaw.

No-one has treated Sansa that well because, I think, the Hound was right. She has been a simpering little bird, singing a song in her little mental cage. And it's not just Joffrey and Cersie that made her like that, she was half way there before she met them. Knights were worth drooling over if they were handsome and brave and she would be a pretty queen one day - her original life view was pretty pathetic.

What?! So now it's Sansa's fault for being mistreated? I guess it was just a question of time before the victim-blaming bullshit raised its ugly head in this thread. Sansa's original life was not "pretty pathetic", it was a life of an 11-year old girl. It was "pretty pathetic" the same way Bran's life was "pretty pathetic" for dreaming of being a knight, or Arya's life was "pretty pathetic" for dreaming of fighting with swords and doing other things that was not a realistic option for a highborn girl like her. I guess children are "pretty pathetic" for not learning to be top politicians before they enter puberty, eh? :rolleyes:

Sansa has been repeating the crap she has to repeat because she's been a hostage in an enemy environment and had to survive. And guess what, she had the strength to endure, survive, and not be emotionally broken - and not develop Stockholm Syndrome.

I get the idea that your'e trying to say that Sansa deserves to be mistreated, so Tyrion should get a reward for not raping her or beating her.

Maybe you should stop before you get even more offensive?

[ummester]

Sandor. Dontos. Littlefinger. The crew of his ship.

Sandor protected her like any macho dude would try and protect a pretty or cute little thing, even a pet rabbit, i guess. he did not respect her - he acted out of some kind of masculine sympathy.

Dontos - I explained above - don't make me laugh - he did it for cash, alcohol and a chance to drop tongue spittle on her. LF convinced him he was at no risk, which we all know was BS.

LF - we don't know his end game yet. GRRM has said that LF sees Sansa 3 ways, as a piece to use, as a child to raise and as a sexual object. How LF ultimately treats her may depend on how he ultimately views her and, my take, is that he is letting Sansa grow into herself first. He is giving her a chance because he loved Cat - but if Sansa doesn't impress him, I doubt LF will respect her - use her, sure, not respect her.

LFs crew did what they were told :D

[Zorn Gottes]

The Hound had no respect for her - he thought she was a well trained little bird who sung the songs she had been taught. He didn't think she had any backbone and, by contrast, the Hound developed heaps of respect for Arya - so the Hound wasn't just being sexist, he respected fighters.

The Hound respects Sansa more than anyone else, and for sure more than Tyrion: as a matter of fact, Tyrion took her as a spouse against her will, while the Hound could have taken her with him very easily, and nevertheless he left her in Kingslanding.

Moreover, he thinks she is innocent and naive (which is true), and the reason he tries to shake her is that he fears the consequences she may suffer being so unaware of the brutality in the world. But he is fascinated just by her innocence, his words may be disrespectful but deep inside he likes the person she is.

[David Selig]

Sandor protected her like any macho dude would try and protect a pretty or cute little thing, even a pet rabbit, i guess. he did not respect her - he acted out of some kind of masculine sympathy.

Dontos - I explained above - don't make me laugh - he did it for cash, alcohol and a chance to drop tongue spittle on her. LF convinced him he was at no risk, which we all know was BS.

LF - we don't know his end game yet. GRRM has said that LF sees Sansa 3 ways, as a piece to use, as a child to raise and as a sexual object. How LF ultimately treats her may depend on how he ultimately views her and, my take, is that he is letting Sansa grow into herself first. He is giving her a chance because he loved Cat - but if Sansa doesn't impress him, I doubt LF will respect her - use her, sure, not respect her.

LFs crew did what they were told :D

You didn't say anything about reasons.

BTW, if LF managed to convince Dontos that smuggling the top hostage of the Lannisters out of KL won't be dangerous, he must have had some mental superpowers.

[Zorn Gottes]

snip

this.

[ummester]

You didn't say anything about reasons.

BTW, if LF managed to convince Dontos that smuggling the top hostage of the Lannisters out of KL won't be dangerous, he must have had some mental superpowers.

Dontos was a besotted, drunken fool, yea - his mind was not the best. If he was smart, he would have known that the logical step for LF to take when he delivered the precious political cargo was to kill him.

[Le Cygne]

The Hound respects Sansa more than anyone else, and for sure more than Tyrion: as a matter of fact, Tyrion took her as a spouse against her will, while the Hound could have taken her with him very easily, and nevertheless he left her in Kingslanding.

Moreover, he thinks she is innocent and naive (which is true), and the reason he tries to shake her is that he fears the consequences she may suffer being so unaware of the brutality in the world. But he is fascinated just by her innocence, his words may be disrespectful but deep inside he likes the person she is.

Yep, and he walked into a 30 to 1 mob to save her life. That's called risking his life for her. (And he was the only one who did.) And he got nothing in return. She didn't even thank him at first. In her thoughts she did over and over again, but he didn't know that.

[ummester]

Annara - I am arguing that Tyrion has treated Sansa better than anyone else (outside her family) in her story arc - only that. And I don't see any examples given to refute it.

Brienne does what she does for her own honor, Cat and Jamie. Sansa is a quest, not a person to Brienne. Sansa is Brienne's way of proving herself to herself.

What?! So now it's Sansa's fault for being mistreated? I guess it was just a question of time before the victim-blaming bullshit raised its ugly head in this thread. Sansa's original life was not "pretty pathetic", it was a life of an 11-year old girl. It was "pretty pathetic" the same way Bran's life was "pretty pathetic" for dreaming of being a knight, or Arya's life was "pretty pathetic" for dreaming of fighting with swords and doing other things that was not a realistic option for a highborn girl like her. I guess children are "pretty pathetic" for not learning to be top politicians before they enter puberty, eh? :rolleyes:

Sansa has been repeating the crap she has to repeat because she's been a hostage in an enemy environment and had to survive. And guess what, she had the strength to endure, survive, and not be emotionally broken - and not develop Stockholm Syndrome.

I get the idea that your'e trying to say that Sansa deserves to be mistreated, so Tyrion should get a reward for not raping her or beating her.

Maybe you should stop before you get even more offensive?

This is a total misinterpretation of what I am saying - putting meaning to my text that is not there.

Yes, Bran also had a pretty pathetic life view at the start.

Contrast both Bran and Sansa to Arya - Arya was not afraid to mingle with the small folk, Arya was not afraid to put the adventures in her head into action and she was only 9. Arya had always been a bolder child than either Sansa or Bran - this is why I think Ned liked Arya so much.

If you haven't noticed, ASoIaF is 1) not real life and 2) a story in which characters often reap what they have sown (just not in the way the reader expects them to reap it - but they all reap it, in what I have read). I am not making a judgement call on a real life person deserving anything, I am making an analysis of a character in a fictional world and comparing their character arc to others.

[ummester]

Yep, and he walked into a 30 to 1 mob to save her life. That's called risking his life for her. (And he was the only one who did.) And he got nothing in return. She didn't even thank him at first. In her thoughts she did over and over again, but he didn't know that.

I'm pretty sure the Hound would do that for any 'little bird' if the risk was calculated and the odds in his favour - I don't take this as proof positive the Hound had any feelings of respect towards the little bird he saves.

Simple question, does The Hound act like he respects Sansa or Arya more?

[Le Cygne]

Simple question, does The Hound act like he respects Sansa or Arya more?

He respects them both.

This is literature, you aren't supposed to take every word literally. It's all about the subtext. And if you take all of his words literally, you are missing just about the whole story.

He is the only one in the whole story, apart from her family, who actually sees her for who she really is, and he likes her. He genuinely wants to hear what she has to say. And he not only listens, he knows she is right, and he lets her know that.

There's a whole story going on, it will be spelled out even more in the next book. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Littlefinger:

"Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow."

Tyrion:

"The last thing my wife needs is more songs," said Tyrion.

Sandor:

"And she sang for me. You didn't know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song."

[ummester]

He respects them both.

This is literature, you aren't supposed to take every word literally. It's all about the subtext. And if you take all of his words literally, you are missing just about the whole story.

He is the only one in the whole story, apart from her family, who actually sees her for who she really is, and he likes her. He genuinely wants to hear what she has to say. And he not only listens, he knows she is right, and he lets her know that. There's a whole story going on, it will be spelled out even more in the next book. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Subtext can mean different things to different readers, unless the author clarifies an intent. It would be wrong to assume any individual view of subtext is absolute, or correct.

How is this for subtext - The Hound offered Arya the chance to take his life, I very much doubt that The Hound would do this for Sansa, or suggest this to anyone he didn't respect the character of.

And, I asked who he respected more, to try and draw a differentiation between just liking something, or feeling the need to protect it, and respecting it.