The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[Maid So Fair]

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

I just wanted to say I really like this idea, even if I think that it fits Arya better (you will marry a King... needle frozen in your hand).

I don't think Sansa and Tyrion are meant for each other - they had their chance and there were very good reasons why it didn't work out. As of now, Tyrion is not worthy of her - he knows very little about Sansa, about how she sees the world and her inner strength. I feel he sees the beauty but not the iron underneath. It's clear Sansa does not think about him in a romantic way at all and I don't see that as likely to change. They might become good friends if the circumstances are right. The best ending for Sansa is for her to be able to choose who she ends up with in the end and I would very much like to see her gain power in her own name.

[Annara Snow]

but we must see this from Martin's position.

If the author would write Sansa pregnant from Lf then it cannot be absurd for Martin to make Sansa stay with Tyrion willingly.

Um, what?! :blink:

apart from that I do not really understand the dislike of Tyrion in this forum, it is really not typical for all those fans where I come from, there it is the contrary. People like me who love the books also see Tyrion as one of their favorite characters. this does not mean that Sansa absolutely has to go to bed with him but the dislike of that story turn is not shared by my friends, women between twenty five and fifty. and please do not call us anything like un-feminist or misogynist, we are working women who know about womens problems.

Oh, that's a relief. :rolleyes: So, just out of interest, does Sansa have to relatively go to bed with Tyrion...? Am I allowed to like Tyrion as a character but at the same time not want Sansa to be forced to go to bed with him at all?

[Lord Freypie]

apart from that I do not really understand the dislike of Tyrion in this forum, it is really not typical for all those fans where I come from, there it is the contrary. People like me who love the books also see Tyrion as one of their favorite characters. this does not mean that Sansa absolutely has to go to bed with him but the dislike of that story turn is not shared by my friends, women between twenty five and fifty. and please do not call us anything like un-feminist or misogynist, we are working women who know about womens problems.

Yep it's the main difference between this community and all other groups of fans I know as well. Guess it's due to the rereads who insisted on every little bad action Tyrion commited (beware you risk to find people posting page long lists of Tyrion crimes if you dare being too positive about him). Remember some innocent thread about Jon and Tyrion friendship eventually announcing they'll work together in later books, that in the space of 2 pages got derailed into "Tyrion is a rapist, allowed his savages to murder innocent dice players and squashed the poor Marillon hand".

[the trees have eyes]

If there's anyone in this story that needs to get over the idea that they deserve nothing less than to be loved by a specimen of physical perfection, it's Tyrion, not Sansa. Sansa, at thirteen, is already WELL past that kind of bullshit. Why is it always Sansa who has to "learn to love"? Tyrion is a grown man and is still as shallow and entitled as he ever was. I will hate it if he gets the girl of his adolescent level dreams while remaining the bitter, hypocritical man that he is.

Yes. I honestly can't think of a good reason to introduce Penny into the story if not to give Tyrion a reality check and help him to reach an epiphany that he'll be a lot happier for having.

[LongRider]

....snip....

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

Sansa " My skin has gone from porcelain, to ivory, to steel...to ice?"

No, just no.

[Pod The Impaler]

Um, what?! :blink:

You have to admit this is a sort of worst-case scanario that both of these are still possible.

I mean, bad things happen in this series. Poor decisions. Failures. Deceptions and betrayals. And people ending up with other people for entirely messed-up reasons.

Am I allowed to like Tyrion as a character but at the same time not want Sansa to be forced to go to bed with him at all?

Yes.

In any case I don't think it would come down to her being forced to anyway. If Tywin Lannister could not move it to happen, who could ?

(Unless you mean "forced to" by the author, which would be sort of a moot point since everyone is forced to everything by the author.)

[Annara Snow]

You have to admit this is a sort of worst-case scanario that both of these are still possible.

I mean, bad things happen in this series. Poor decisions. Failures. Deceptions and betrayals. And people ending up with other people for entirely messed-up reasons.

All sorts of things are possible as far as we know. But in this case, the poster presented those two as the only two alternatives, somehow.

Yes.

In any case I don't think it would come down to her being forced to anyway. If Tywin Lannister could not move it to happen, who could ?

Well, exactly. Since Sansa has not showed any desire to be in Tyrion's bed and certainly showed a desire to not be in it, Tyrion only started wanting her in his bed once Tywin decided she had to be there, and (as far as I know) none of the readers had a wish for it to happen before Tywin decided it had to happen, it all comes down to what Tywin Lannister decided had to happen. Is there actually another reason that people insist that Sansa and Tyrion have to end up together, other than the forced marriage that Tywin did not make work? I guess people really think that Tywin was the world's best matchmaker.

And it certainly comes down to people perceiving sex with Tyrion as some kind of an obligation on Sansa's part, judging by the amount of resentment many have for her not wanting said sex and the insistence that the fulfillment of this task (i.e. sex with Tyrion) is a rite of passage necessary for Sansa to graduate and get the degree of mature, non-shallow character.

Apparently, not agreeing with this means one must be a Tyrion-hater.

[MindLikeWarp]

I think Sansa will see loyalty in Tyrion. I see them meeting again. She is still his wife.

Because she starts off disliking him so strongly, I can see Martin turning it around the other way.

[Annara Snow]

I think Sansa will see loyalty in Tyrion. I see them meeting again. She is still his wife.

She doesn't consider herself his wife and thinks of her marriage to Tyrion as a "mockery of a marriage" that she's left in the past. She also did not feel any obligation to stay in it (what with planning to escape with Dontos) or to have sex with Tyrion, not even while she was a hostage in King's Landing, when they actually had means to force her into it. Apparently, she has this odd idea that forced marriages aren't awesome and also aren't something she has to honor. (Those women. Today they want to have a say in who they have sex with, tomorrow they may ask for the right to be educated or vote or something.)

Because she starts off disliking him so strongly, I can see Martin turning it around the other way.

Unfortunately for your theory, she didn't start off disliking Tyrion strongly. In fact, she never disliked him. She just doesn't want to have sex with him or be married to him. Her feelings were a mix of mild respect, gratitude, pity and indifference, mixed with physical disgust and an awareness that she can't really trust him.

[Pod The Impaler]

Is there actually another reason that people insist that Sansa and Tyrion have to end up together, other than the forced marriage that Tywin did not make work? I guess people really think that Tywin was the world's best matchmaker.

Other than very strange twists of fate - the kind that happen to spite and mock the likes of Tywin, not to fulfil his true intentions - no.

However, it is unlikely, and I think we may have already seen all of it that we're likely to see:

Edmure Tully and Roslin Frey, actually being in love after the Red Wedding. It was a match conceived of as House Tully's downfall, but "if the gods are just", may end up backfiring horribly on old man Walder.

[MindLikeWarp]

She doesn't consider herself his wife and thinks of her marriage to Tyrion as a "mockery of a marriage" that she's left in the past. She also did not feel any obligation to stay in it (what with planning to escape with Dontos) or to have sex with Tyrion, not even while she was a hostage in King's Landing, when they actually had means to force her into it. Apparently, she has this odd idea that forced marriages aren't awesome and also aren't something she has to honor. (Those women. Today they want to have a say in who they have sex with, tomorrow they may ask for the right to be educated or vote or something.)

Unfortunately for your theory, she didn't start off disliking Tyrion strongly. In fact, she never disliked him. She just doesn't want to have sex with him or be married to him. Her feelings were a mix of mild respect, gratitude, pity and indifference, mixed with physical disgust and an awareness that she can't really trust him.

I disagree. She is his wife. In their society, with their rules and laws, she is his wife. In this particular case it doesn't matter how she feels.

I also see what you categorize as pity, indifference, physical disgust and distrust, as disliking strongly. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

She will end up liking him.

[Grail King]

Do you guys seriously think that ASoIaF is the kind of storytelling that is going to focus on Sansa as a major character whilst making statements about marriage choices and the like?

I think her character does have some role to play in wrapping the story up, otherwise she wouldn't still be alive, or she would be packed away without POV chapters, like Rickon - but I think that ultimately all of the little family and power struggles occurring in Westeros are going to pale and be cast aside for winter.

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

Ithought of Sansa becoming an Ice Queen, just that she would choose it herself, Ned sacrificed her wolf from the old gods and I thought a Stark sacrifice might be needed to bring balance and order and Sansa would become the NK queen.

Not what I would wish for,for my Sansa.

ETA: What I really like to see is Sansa decides to tie in with House Dayne becuase Ifeel there is a big story of Daynes and Starks that may need to come full circle.

[Le Cygne]

Other than very strange twists of fate - the kind that happen to spite and mock the likes of Tywin, not to fulfil his true intentions - no.

However, it is unlikely, and I think we may have already seen all of it that we're likely to see:

Edmure Tully and Roslin Frey, actually being in love after the Red Wedding. It was a match conceived of as House Tully's downfall, but "if the gods are just", may end up backfiring horribly on old man Walder.

Those "strange twists of fate", why not also go with: Jaime and Margaery will fall in love, Tywin wanted them to marry, but Jaime, unlike Tyrion, refused Tywin. However, a key difference, Jaime and Margaery's families both were involved in arranging that marriage and they were not enemies, and in neither case were the horrible things the Lannisters did to Sansa.

That has a greater likelihood of a "strange twist of fate." Although that would also require an abrupt last minute change in personality and direction of ongoing series spanning stories with other characters (Jaime and Brienne, Sansa and Sandor), at least there is not this overwhelmingly horrible history to overcome, not to mention the complete revulsion on the part of one party.

Also, Tyrion thought of Tysha a dozen times and repeatedly called her his wife in the present tense in the last book, so there's that, too. And the Edmure and Roslin marriage was arranged by both families, and both showed attraction to each other from the start, as well as during the wedding. A lot of detail in ongoing stories, heading into the penultimate book.

I disagree. She is his wife. In their society, with their rules and laws, she is his wife. In this particular case it doesn't matter how she feels.

Actually, no. The only other forced marriages (Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion at swordpoint, the armed knights of the Kingsguard, neither Sansa nor the Starks consented to the marriage) in the series were Ramsay Bolton's. I don't think Jeyne Poole considers herself obligated to honor that "mockery of a marriage" (to use Sansa's term to describe the forced marriage to Tyrion), either. Robb planned to end the forced marriage and free Sansa from Tyrion via a sword cutting off Tyrion's head. That's the "law" in Westeros.

[cocoalover1956]

I disagree. She is his wife. In their society, with their rules and laws, she is his wife. In this particular case it doesn't matter how she feels.

I also see what you categorize as pity, indifference, physical disgust and distrust, as disliking strongly. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

She will end up liking him.

If someone tied me to a chair and forced me to listen to every album by a band I don't really care for, does that make me a fan? The legality of their marriage is actually pretty shaky. It was done without her consent, without the consent of her family, under the threat of violence (vows by swordpoint are not considered valid), and was unconsummated.

[Annara Snow]

If someone tied me to a chair and forced me to listen to every album by a band I don't really care for, does that make me a fan? The legality of their marriage is actually pretty shaky. It was done without her consent, without the consent of her family, under the threat of violence (vows by swordpoint are not considered valid), and was unconsummated.

Of course it does. It doesn't matter how you feel. All that matters is that your ears heard them. Now you must continue listening to them!

But even though it doesn't matter how you feel, in the end You. Will. Like. Them. See, it's exactly the fact you really dislike the band's sound and listening to them gave you many hours of displeasure, that means you will definitely like them in the end.

It all makes sense, somehow.

[Lord Freypie]

I disagree. She is his wife. In their society, with their rules and laws, she is his wife. In this particular case it doesn't matter how she feels.

Actually Sansa was ready to "honor" her marriage with Tyrion, no matter her feelings if he hadn't proposed to let her all the time she wanted.

She had no desire or love for him, but behaved exactly like a woman of her time was supposed to.

Her husband who had all power decided to take her feelings into consideration and let her a choice. Forgive Sansa it's not her fault if she wasn't raped.

[Annara Snow]

^ That had less to do with being a woman of her time, and much more to do with being a prisoner who had been directly threatened and told by the queen that she had no choice but to be wedded and bedded.

Without a choice, Sansa, by definition, could not "honor" anything. As soon as she had a choice, she chose not to. Notably, Tyrion assumed that she would eventually consent to sex with him once she came to know and trust him, as if it was an inevitablility and her lack of desire was a momentary problem to overcome. He was surprised when Sansa pointed out the possibility that hadn't occurred to him - that she may never want him.

[juanml82]

^ That had less to do with being a woman of her time, and much more to do with being a prisoner who had been directly threatened and told by the queen that she had no choice but to be wedded and bedded.

Without a choice, Sansa, by definition, could not "honor" anything. As soon as she had a choice, she chose not to. Notably, Tyrion assumed that she would eventually consent to sex with him once she came to know and trust him, as if it was an inevitablility and her lack of desire was a momentary problem to overcome. He was surprised when Sansa pointed out the possibility that hadn't occurred to him - that she may never want him.

No. As soon as she had a choice, she tried to convince herself into having sex with him. That's the part where Tyrion already looks like he won't rape her and she tells herself she has to find Tyrion's beauty. After that, Tyrion tells her he'll wait until she wants him and only then she finally says that part of "what if I never want you?".

Which is even more tragic, come to think of it.

[Le Cygne]

Nope. He just postponed the rape:

"We will wait. The turn of a moon, a year, a season, however long it takes. Until you have come to know me better, and perhaps to trust me a little." His smile might have been meant to be reassuring, but without a nose it only made him look more grotesque and sinister.

Not good enough for Sansa. She's a smart cookie. She's gotten this far with the courtesy armor, and now she's going for more. If you don't take everything literally, and see what she's doing here, we don't see the look on her face, as she's completely repulsed looking at him, but he does. And he gives a little more:

“On my honor as a Lannister,” the Imp said, “I will not touch you until you want me to.”

And then she plays her final card:

It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?”

His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. “Never?”

Her neck was so tight she could scarcely nod.

[juanml82]

And right before that we have this passage

“Sansa.” The hand was gone. “Open your eyes.”
She had promised to obey; she opened her eyes. He was sitting by her feet, naked. Where his legs joined, his man’s staff poked up stiff and hard from a thicket of coarse yellow hair, but it was the only thing about him that was straight.
“My lady,” Tyrion said, “you are lovely, make no mistake, but... I cannot do this. My father be damned. We will wait. The turn of a moon, a year, a season, however long it takes. Until you
have come to know me better, and perhaps to trust me a little.” His smile might have been meant to be reassuring, but without a nose it only made him look more grotesque and sinister.
Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, at all of him, Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try. She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?

She's trying to find his beauty to overcome his objections