The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[Lord Freypie]

Nope. He just postponed the rape:

Not good enough for Sansa. She's a smart cookie. She's gotten this far with the courtesy armor, and now she's going for more. If you don't take everything literally, and see what she's doing here, we don't see the look on her face, as she's completely repulsed looking at him, but he does. And he gives a little more:

And then she plays her final card:

It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?”

Actually it was the boldest move Sansa could make, and shows she had far more trust in Tyrion than her fans seem to think.

She gave him the best reason possible to say "Sorry I've changed my mind, I could have waited some months but not forever to do something I need for political reasons", it was kind of suicidal would Tyrion had been anyone but himself (and she wasn't knowing in which extent he was ready to disappoint his family).

Showing she hadn't the card "I'll please you one day if you please me" in her game, hardly gave her any power on him (if he wasn't vain to the point he still believed she would change her mind). Certainly not something a good player would have bet on, barely knowing Tyrion, if it did show Sansa had the merits of honesty and bravery.

[Annara Snow]

If 'Look at him' is the guiding reason for the courage, dignity and wits - then I'm sorry, I find them all based on something that undermines them. It's not dignified or brave to act coy in a way to subvert a situation to your desired conclusions, it is deceptive. If Sansa was dignified and brave, she would not have used courtesy armor, she would just have told Tyrion that he was too ugly for her to ever want to sleep with, end of story.

I don't hold her decisions against her, they are hers to make. I find it tragic that she always has to be such a meek little bird about how she makes them.

LOL So now it's dignified and brave to insult someone instead of simply telling them you don't want to have sex with them? As opposed to, you know, really rude and in this case, idiotic, since he has power over her and this would only enrage him, for all she knows enough to rape her or have her beaten? :lol: Now I've heard everything.

Well, at least now I know: next time I say no to a guy, I'll make sure to add: "Because you're really ugly and boring." That way I'll be brave and dignified, while just saying "no" without any insults makes me meek and weak. :rolleyes:

And oh god, can you imagine the fandom's reaction if Sansa had actually told Tyrion he's ugly? She's already raked over the coals as "shallow" and a bitch to poow whittle Tywion for just daring to say no to him!

[Annara Snow]

Actually it was the boldest move Sansa could make, and shows she had far more trust in Tyrion than her fans seem to think.

She gave him the best reason possible to say "Sorry I've changed my mind, I just can't wait forever to do something I need for political reasons", it was kind of suicidal would Tyrion had been anyone but himself (and she wasn't knowing in which extent he was ready to disappoint his family).

Showing she hadn't the card "I'll please you one day if you please me" in her game, hardly gave her any power on him (if he wasn't vain to the point he still believed she would change her mind). Certainly not something a good player would have bet on, barely knowing Tyrion, if it did show Sansa had the merits of honesty and bravery.

Indeed, Sansa was not being manipulative, she was being honest and brave, and showed certain respect and a degree of trust (in his word/honor) in Tyrion. The latter was also why she had preferred to marry him to Lancel.

It makes it more baffling when some Tyrion fans hate her for it and wish she had tried to dangle the carrot of eventual sex in front of him as if she thought of him as a dick-led moron.

[Jellyfish]

Um, what?! :blink:

Oh, that's a relief. :rolleyes: So, just out of interest, does Sansa have to relatively go to bed with Tyrion...? Am I allowed to like Tyrion as a character but at the same time not want Sansa to be forced to go to bed with him at all?

this kind of irony is not necessary because it makes the conversation less polite .

of course you are allowed to like Tyrion as character, just as I am allowed to like Sansa as character. and yet I am less interested to think about what "would be good for her" or what would be good for Tyrion, I discuss what "would be good" for the story as a whole since the characters are not real persons. if I would want to use energy to fight against arranged or forced child marriages I would do it with Terre des Hommes or Amnesty International. Sansa is not a proxy for all abused girls, she is a character in a book. and I want to read what is best for the book. and one of all variations that make sense is if the story goes in a round circle and repeats the Sansa Tyrion conflict in a different light. one of many possibilities of course, GRRM will decide what do do.

[Annara Snow]

^ And how would that be good for the book?

How exactly would establishing a complete lack of any romantic ir sexual compatibility and lack of personal or political reasons to stay together, and then making them decide to stay together anyway, just because they are officially married in a marriage that was forced on her as an act of war against her family, make good storytelling, or be true to the characters?

And how would it be good for the story to have it based on the premise that, basically, forced marriages are sacred?

I hate when people try to pull the "it's not real life!" excuse. Would you say the same if there was a popular book series, movie or TV show based on the premise that gay people are sick and are damned by the god or gods? Or that Jewish people are evil and should be killed? Or that black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior and should obey the men? Or that rape is OK? Which, actually, the idea that forced marriage is OK boils down to.

Fiction reflects reality and deals with the moral issues of the real world, it has everything to do with our morality and out emotions and experiences. If it didn't, why would you even be invested in it?

[ummester]

LOL So now it's dignified and brave to insult someone instead of simply telling them you don't want to have sex with them? As opposed to, you know, really rude and in this case, idiotic, since he has power over her and this would only enrage him, for all she knows enough to rape her or have her beaten? :lol: Now I've heard everything.

Well, at least now I know: next time I say no to a guy, I'll make sure to add: "Because you're really ugly and boring." That way I'll be brave and dignified, while just saying "no" without any insults makes me meek and weak. :rolleyes:

And oh god, can you imagine the fandom's reaction if Sansa had actually told Tyrion he's ugly? She's already raked over the coals as "shallow" and a bitch to poow whittle Tywion for just daring to say no to him!

It's dignified to be up front, honest and honorable.

It's brave to put yourself in a position where you risk danger, or pain to yourself.

This Sansa Tyrion situation is interesting because readers can interpret it different ways, depending on their personal bias. It involves two characters, both of which have reasonably specific faults, that can make them unlikable, though neither of which are inherently bad.

Actually it was the boldest move Sansa could make, and shows she had far more trust in Tyrion than her fans seem to think.

She gave him the best reason possible to say "Sorry I've changed my mind, I could have waited some months but not forever to do something I need for political reasons", it was kind of suicidal would Tyrion had been anyone but himself (and she wasn't knowing in which extent he was ready to disappoint his family).

Showing she hadn't the card "I'll please you one day if you please me" in her game, hardly gave her any power on him (if he wasn't vain to the point he still believed she would change her mind). Certainly not something a good player would have bet on, barely knowing Tyrion, if it did show Sansa had the merits of honesty and bravery.

I agree with this in the context that Sansa is not a very bold character and that it had the merits of honesty and bravery from her perspective only. She basically used a kindness she knew was inside Tyrion against him to tackle a situation which, although unjust to her, was not really of Tyrion's doing. This does amount to the boldest move Sansa could make because she is inherently risk adverse and not bold when considered against the spectrum of character boldness in the series.

It depends how relatively you want to look at it.

It's bold for a baby to try and walk. It's bold for someone who his afraid of spiders to touch one.

If the person is aware the spider is non venomous and they are still afraid to touch it, there is no real risk and their bravery/boldness then becomes relative only to their own mind.

[MindLikeWarp]

^ And how would that be good for the book?

How exactly would establishing a complete lack of any romantic ir sexual compatibility and lack of personal or political reasons to stay together, and then making them decide to stay together anyway, just because they are officially married in a marriage that was forced on her as an act of war against her family, make good storytelling, or be true to the characters?

And how would it be good for the story to have it based on the premise that, basically, forced marriages are sacred?

I hate when people try to pull the "it's not real life!" excuse. Would you say the same if there was a popular book series, movie or TV show based on the premise that gay people are sick and are damned by the god or gods? Or that Jewish people are evil and should be killed? Or that black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior and should obey the men? Or that rape is OK? Which, actually, the idea that forced marriage is OK boils down to.

Fiction reflects reality and deals with the moral issues of the real world, it has everything to do with our morality and out emotions and experiences. If it didn't, why would you even be invested in it?

Not to be argumentative, but there are popular books, movies, and shows based on violence and cruelty...why not the rest? Those thoughts obviously exist in our society as you just presented them. Why not turn them upside down? Why not present provocative alternatives?

[Woman of War]

I hate when people try to pull the "it's not real life!" excuse.

And what about the outcry to apply "modern day morality" ? (Only in Tyrion's case of course, not in Ned's or Robb's)

You may hate it but I think Jellyfish is right. Any kind of political positions in any forum leads to nothing compared to what can be done with the same amount of invested time to change the real world.

Apart from that the height of of irony is denouncing any comparison to the real world while at the same time asking for applying "modern morality" on characters and denying that Martin's characters are caught up in in a corset of their times concerning values and norms. And within these circumstances, that limited onlook on marriage, sexuality and the way a woman's life was perceived Tyrion was the least bad that could happen to Sansa. This is no a world where alternatives are known, where those who turn women into sexual slaves by marrying them off to husbands chosen by fathers, clans or religious fanatics could see that most of the world is opposed to their violent fanatical approach.

But I should try to follow your advice, Jellyfish, and stay polite, even if I dislike those double standards.

[ummester]

Fiction reflects reality and deals with the moral issues of the real world, it has everything to do with our morality and out emotions and experiences. If it didn't, why would you even be invested in it?

I agree that good fiction reflects reality and deals with moral issues that are relevant to it's target audience. But there is no morality inherent in a work of fiction beyond, perhaps, the author's. The reader provides the value system on which to gauge the story's morality all by themselves.

[Annara Snow]

It's dignified to be up front, honest and honorable.

It's brave to put yourself in a position where you risk danger, or pain to yourself.

What, by telling Tyrion "You are really ugly"? :rolleyes:

Do you read your own posts? Are you seriously arguing that it's "up front, honest and honorable" to be rude and tell people they're ugly when you're rejecting sex with them, while simply telling them "no" is not?

WTF?!

You know what's up front, honest and honorable? Telling people the truth without being unnecessarily rude and insulting. Newsflash: it IS up front, honest and honorable to say: "I do not want to sleep with you" and one does not need to justify that and tell anyone the reasons. Because people have the right to refuse sex with someone and it's not a decision that needs to be defended and explained.

I agree with this in the context that Sansa is not a very bold character and that it had the merits of honesty and bravery from her perspective only. She basically used a kindness she knew was inside Tyrion against him to tackle a situation which, although unjust to her, was not really of Tyrion's doing. This does amount to the boldest move Sansa could make because she is inherently risk adverse and not bold when considered against the spectrum of character boldness in the series.

What the heck are you on about? Are you saying that people need to act like reckless idiots in order to be brave?

Was Arya a coward for not mouthing off to Roose Bolton, and for keeping silent when she realized he would really take her tongue out if she asked him another question? Or for not standing up and insulting the Mountain to his face? Or for not announcing to everyone in Harrenhal that she's Arya Stark? Or for not telling Weese or Chyswic that she hates him and wants him dead?

[ummester]

What, by telling Tyrion "You are really ugly"? :rolleyes:

Do you read your own posts? Are you seriously arguing that it's "up front, honest and honorable" to be rude and tell people they're ugly when you're rejecting sex with them, while simply telling them "no" is not?

WTF?!

You know what's up front, honest and honorable? Telling people the truth without being unnecessarily rude and insulting. Newsflash: it IS up front, honest and honorable to say: "I do not want to sleep with you" and one does not need to justify that and tell anyone the reasons. Because people have the right to refuse sex with someone and it's not a decision that needs to be defended and explained.

What the heck are you on about? Are you saying that people need to act like reckless idiots in order to be brave?

Was Arya a coward for not mouthing off to Roose Bolton, and for keeping silent when she realized he would really take her tongue out if she asked him another question? Or for not standing up and insulting the Mountain to his face? Or for not announcing to everyone in Harrenhal that she's Arya Stark? Or for not telling Weese or Chyswic that she hates him and wants him dead?

I'm just clarifying what the words mean and trying to remove relative bias from the conversation.

Sansa saying no to Tyrion was the right thing to do. I'm not suggesting that she should have said anything else. What I am suggesting is that using the courtesy armor before saying no is either timid or deceptive and a totally unnecessary move that leads juanml82 to read the situation as one in which Sansa was trying to find Tyrion attractive enough to sleep with and Le Cygne to think she is playing bravely.

Tact is lies that humans use on each other to try and protect each others feelings, whilst only really ever understanding their own.

True bravery, that is not relative to an individuals personal fears, is shown when confronting something that is rationally dangerous to everyone.

Recklessness is something different altogether.

[Lord Freypie]

This thread is doing rounds.

One more time, if Martin decided to make Tyrion and Sansa had any future together, it doesn't have to be a continuation of the forced wedding.

If now-player Sansa decide to use his desire for her for political reasons, no longer see him as a Lannister but as the worst enemy of his own family, suddenty see in him some arousing knight aspect when he comes back on the back of a dragon, decide to punish herself with an husband she has no desire for because she feels guilty for something, or whatever Martin can imagine to reunite them while making them evolve, it would have nothing to do with "Sansa learning to love the gaoler she was forcibly married to" because Tyrion won't be her gaoler at this point, and their wedding may even have been cancelled far before. And about "Tyrion being rewarded with the love of the most beautiful (sic, what about Daenerys ?, Arianne ?) woman in Westeros", he may very well have done things to really desserve it in the meantime.

Not saying it's likely or something I wish for, I just find absurd to go back to the conditions of their wedding everytime a possible future relation between those characters is discussed.

[unitron]

...

And how would it be good for the story to have it based on the premise that, basically, forced marriages are sacred?

...

Isn't that kind of the case in the world/universe in which these books are set?

[unitron]

Le cygne was right, you did miss the story. Sansa tells him she will never want him, what more do you want?

To be perfectly nitpicky about it, she doesn't. She asks what if she never wants him.

[Annara Snow]

This thread is doing rounds.

One more time, if Martin decided to make Tyrion and Sansa had any future together, it doesn't have to be a continuation of the forced wedding.

If now-player Sansa decide to use his desire for her for political reasons, no longer see him as a Lannister but as the worst enemy of his own family, suddenty see in him some arousing knight aspect when he comes back on the back of a dragon, decide to punish herself with an husband she has no desire for because she feels guilty for something, or whatever Martin can imagine to reunite them while making them evolve, it would have nothing to do with "Sansa learning to love the gaoler she was forcibly married to" because Tyrion won't be her gaoler at this point, and their wedding may even have been cancelled far before. And about "Tyrion being rewarded with the love of the most beautiful (sic, what about Daenerys ?, Arianne ?) woman in Westeros", he may very well have done things to really desserve it in the meantime.

Not saying it's likely or something I wish for, I just find absurd to go back to the conditions of their wedding everytime a possible future relation between those characters is discussed.

It's absurd to go back to the actual interaction between the characters that has defined the only relationship they've had so far, while discussing the possible future of that relationship? :huh:

How does that work? And does it apply to any other character? If we were to discuss what is going to happen with Jaime and Lady Stoneheart, is it absurd to go back to Jaime's history with Catelyn? If we were to discuss the possibility of Jaime meeting Dany, would it be absurd to go back to discussing Aerys? If we were to discuss the possible future meeting of Tyrion and Littlefinger, would it be absurd to go back to the two times LF framed Tyrion for murder/attempted murder?

What else would we be discussing but their history and, in particular, the forced marriage? Which, incidentally, you mentioned several times in your hypothetical scenarios, in the same paragraph where you claimed you were not discussing the forced marriage.

And let's be honest here. People who want Sansa and Tyrion together don't want that because they've read GRRM's mind or asked him and gotten the answer that he's going to have Tyrion and Sansa end up together. They want them together because of what has happened between them so far; and mostly, they want them together not in spite of the forced marriage but because of it. The absolute majority of people clamoring for Sansa/Tyrion don't want Sansa with Tyrion because they want her to punish herself or because they think he would make a good ally for her (and BTW, why the heck would Sansa need to sleep with Tyrion to be his ally and make him work against his family, when working against his family is what he wants already? Jon and Stannis, for instance, managed to be allies without having sex, and I'm assuming that Tywin, Roose and Walder Frey also were not having hot threesomes). They want it because they want Sansa to "learn to love" Tyrion and for Tyrion to get Sansa as a prize. Why Sansa and not Arianne or Dany? You should ask them. I'm guessing exactly because Sansa is the one who was forced to marry him, not Dany or Arianne, and she was the one who rejected him, so they see Sansa as his natural possession and her acceptance of sex with him as something she "owes" him, since he was so nice and heroic not to rape her (therefore she must naturally reward him with sex; ask Chett, the ultimate Nice Guy ).

If you know some other reason why some Tyrion fans are so adamant that Sansa must and will end up Tyrion - rather than, say Dany, Arianne, Tysha, Penny, or someone new - please tell me.

[unitron]

If someone tied me to a chair and forced me to listen to every album by a band I don't really care for, does that make me a fan? The legality of their marriage is actually pretty shaky. It was done without her consent, without the consent of her family, under the threat of violence (vows by swordpoint are not considered valid), and was unconsummated.

In Westeros the legality of the marriage is that if the king orders it, you do it*, at which point you're married, with or without consummation** (although under the right circumstances you might get an annulment at some later point from the powers that be on the strength of that non-consummation).

*If you say that you'd rather die than be married to whoever, you'd better sincerely mean that, because not obeying a command of the king can easily be quite fatal.

**Perhaps you've notice the lack of lawyers, due process, a written constitution, et cetera.

[Annara Snow]

Isn't that kind of the case in the world/universe in which these books are set?

You mean, like the smallfolk being butchered and raped and tortured during war, slavery being practiced and boys being castrated and made to kill puppies, and dwarfs like Tyrion being despised and considered barely human?

I take it that you support everything that happens in the world/universe in which these books are set?

And nope, actually, forced marriages are despised in Westeros; nobody considers Ramsay's marriage to Lady Hornwood, Ramsay's marriage to Jeyne Poole aka "Arya Stark", or Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, anything approaching "sacred" in any way.

[Annara Snow]

In Westeros the legality of the marriage is that if the king orders it, you do it*, at which point you're married, with or without consummation** (although under the right circumstances you might get an annulment at some later point from the powers that be on the strength of that non-consummation).

No, it's not. The king does not have that authority. The authority to marry off a girl belongs to her family.

The only way the Lannisters tried to justify marrying Sansa without her consent or the consent of her family was by proclaiming her a ward of the crown, and proclaiming her family "traitors", therefore making Joffrey her "father". Joffrey, whose legitimacy as a king is contested by half of Westeros anyway.

And if you are seriously arguing that nobody in Westeros ever rebelled or fought against what kings or other powerful people tried to make them do and that everyone just does what the king tells them to do, well, I guess you just missed the entire story, from Robert's Rebellion to the War of Five Kings to every other war, conflict or scheme in the story. The crown also proclaimed Robb, Stannis and Renly traitors, but that didn't make them say "oh, now I must go and offer my life to king Joffrey!" any more than Aerys ordering Jon Arryn to hand over/kill Ned and Robert made him do just that.

*If you say that you'd rather die than be married to whoever, you'd better sincerely mean that, because not obeying a command of the king can easily be quite fatal.

In ASOAIF, it's more likely to be: "I'd rather have kill than be married to whoever (or have someone I care about be married to whoever)". Unwanted marriages end up in murder more often than in suicide, See Lysa's murder of Jon Arryn, Cersei's murder of Robert, Olenna's murder of Joffrey in order to prevent him from being married to Margaery, Robb's intention to make Sansa a widow by killing Tyrion, Jeyne Poole's escape and the clansmen's intention to save her and kill Ramsay...

**Perhaps you've notice the lack of lawyers, due process, a written constitution, et cetera.

Perhaps you've noticed the abundance of wars, conflicts, scheming, poisonings and other murders.

[unitron]

Nope. He just postponed the rape:

...

Except that according to all the customs and standards of the times and the society in which both of them were raised, it would not be considered rape.

It was the wife's duty to submit to it, not just because of her status as "property" of her husband, but because of the importance of birthing heirs when you're part of a highborn matrimonial unit.

Very few of the other men of planetos would have had even the thought of postponement cross their minds.

[Lord Freypie]

@Annara

By the conditions of their wedding I was meaning the conditions of their wedding, that it was forced, not what it showed of their personnalities or possible interactions.

To resume what I see is people discarding any possible positive relations between these characters, because it would hurt their (respectable) feminist ideas.

I see far more arguments about the wedding being forced, or arguements about the supposed mysoginist agenda of Tyrion-Sansa shippers, in those threads than arguements saying their different personnalities and centers of interest can only lead to an unhappy marriage for example (which actually I'd find more pertinent, Tyrion should marry some nerdy girl if he doesn't want to be bored to death once sex with his wife lost his appeal, imo, and Sansa would have difficulties supporting Tyrion's level of cynicism and identity problems). Then in the list of pertinent arguements there's the fact Sansa seem more likely to have interactions with an host of other characters she is likely to find more attractive than with Tyrion (Petyr, the Hound, Harry the Heir, Aegon, Gendry), and that Tyrion as well is more likely to have interactions with many women he's more likely to want to have a love affair with (Tysha, Daenerys, Penny if he "learns to love her", whore 443, etc.. ) before they meet again.

And I just find being obsessed by the forced aspect of their wedding and how politically incorrect it would be if they had a future together even more absurd when the description of several originally forced or arranged weddings (Dany-Drogo, Ned-Catelyn) already gave some positive light to them, compared to what is said of pure love stories (Doran-forgot-her-name, Rhaegar-Lyanna, etc...). It's not like people being originally united by an unwanted wedding ending loving each other would be anything new in this world.

What makes Tyrion and Sansa unlikely to end in love is who they are and where they are, not that they happened to be forcibly married, or that Martin absolutely has to follow some political agenda or be damned.