The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[chrisdaw]

But here you assume that Sansa would choose to betray Tyrion in order to support her family. Why would she have to do that? Why would Tyrion even turn against any remaining Stark? There is his friendship with Jon or even Bran and this may come up as topic again when they ally to fight a common enemy. It must be in the books for something.

Fair enough, the North and South making common cause against the Others seems inevitable. Possibly it all happens cleanly but that would mean missing out on some major possible high points that things were seemingly actually set up for. Do you really think we'll see an alliance without the North and South clashing? Without triumph for the North over the South? Without the Starks first bringing the Lannisters to heel? Without Sansa being given the opportunity to sacrifice Southron power and pageantry for Northern loyalty? Without Jaime being subjected to Bran's judgement?

[The Mother of The Others]

Does it end on a freeeze frame of impending victory for the North but without the final battle spelled out for us? Like maybe the final battle we get to fully see is Jon & Daenerys joining up to wipe out the Cold and then they turn their attention South just as the Vale was about to go over to Aegon but Sansa delivers it to the North King as our way of knowing that it'll all turn out the way we'd want? If Tyrion has betrayed Daenerys by then to back Aegon he'd be on the losing side of that freeze frame ending with all the lords saying, "Oh shit!" as things fade to black. But if Tyrion stays true to Stormy and delivers the Rock to this new alliance of hers with the Ice team, and if this coincides with Sansa signing up too, you'd have the kingdom suddenly wearing a belt stretching across the continent from Tyrion's western holdings to Sansa's eastern shores with the belt buckle being the Riverlands of the Fish and Cat's Crossing. Then Tyrion and Sansa could bird-mail each other little nothings like, "Hey, honey!" "What's cookin', love?" "Got your back, dearie!" Etc.

[LongRider]

Well, MotO's, if that scenario proved true, the separated, but oh so 'loving' spouses could spend time with someone they might actually love and whom they really want to spend time with.

Would that be the bittersweet ending we've been promised? (TBSEWBP?)

[Annara Snow]

Fair enough, the North and South making common cause against the Others seems inevitable. Possibly it all happens cleanly but that would mean missing out on some major possible high points that things were seemingly actually set up for. Do you really think we'll see an alliance without the North and South clashing? Without triumph for the North over the South? Without the Starks first bringing the Lannisters to heel? Without Sansa being given the opportunity to sacrifice Southron power and pageantry for Northern loyalty? Without Jaime being subjected to Bran's judgement?

...Without Sansa getting the chance to annul and be completely free of the "mockery of a marriage" (quote: Sansa) she was forced into as a hostage by her captors in their blatant attempt to destroy her family and take their lands?

[ummester]

Do you guys seriously think that ASoIaF is the kind of storytelling that is going to focus on Sansa as a major character whilst making statements about marriage choices and the like?

I think her character does have some role to play in wrapping the story up, otherwise she wouldn't still be alive, or she would be packed away without POV chapters, like Rickon - but I think that ultimately all of the little family and power struggles occurring in Westeros are going to pale and be cast aside for winter.

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

[cocoalover1956]

Do you guys seriously think that ASoIaF is the kind of storytelling that is going to focus on Sansa as a major character whilst making statements about marriage choices and the like?

I think her character does have some role to play in wrapping the story up, otherwise she wouldn't still be alive, or she would be packed away without POV chapters, like Rickon - but I think that ultimately all of the little family and power struggles occurring in Westeros are going to pale and be cast aside for winter.

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

Now I've seen everything. Why would Jon give his sister (or cousin, whatever) to the Great Other? How he even set up negotiations? The focus on marriage in Sansa's arc is to deconstruct the romantic images of medieval marriages, to show to nasty political and sexist underbelly Westeros' social institutions.

[RavenKing23]

I swear there are people here who hate Tyrion worse than Tywin and Cersei put together ever did.

Meanwhile, Sandor sure is getting a lot of whitewashing.

Speaking of irony.

Why do you keep using that word? I don't think it means what you think it means. (I believe the one your looking for is hypocrisy) And by the way Sansa herself kinda whitewashes Sandor herself, so, umm (shurgs)

[ummester]

Now I've seen everything. Why would Jon give his sister (or cousin, whatever) to the Great Other? How he even set up negotiations? The focus on marriage in Sansa's arc is to deconstruct the romantic images of medieval marriages, to show to nasty political and sexist underbelly Westeros' social institutions.

A deconstruction is not a story. Major characters do not exist just to provide commentary, they exist to service the plot. If Sansa's (or any major character's arc) does not conclude and tie into the primary focus of the narrative, they become side characters.

In the historical Long Night, the great Other presented as a woman to the Nights King, so it would actually be gender unbiased if the great Other presented as a man to a Nights Queen, if there is another Long Night. A Nights Queen would probably need to be a Stark - Sansa might have a Frozen ending, she might get to rule over The Lands of Always Winter.

[UtherSnow]

The irony could well be nothing more than Tyrion without a T. No one spot that before?

[RavenKing23]

A deconstruction is not a story. Major characters do not exist just to provide commentary, they exist to service the plot. If Sansa's (or any major character's arc) does not conclude and tie into the primary focus of the narrative, they become side characters.

In the historical Long Night, the great Other presented as a woman to the Nights King, so it would actually be gender unbiased if the great Other presented as a man to a Nights Queen, if there is another Long Night. A Nights Queen would probably need to be a Stark - Sansa might have a Frozen ending, she might get to rule over The Lands of Always Winter.

Hmmm. . . Bullshit.

[ummester]

Hmmm. . . Bullshit.

It would be funny if it occurred and, in all seriousness, the major characters left alive do have to service an ending that wraps up their beginnings and any introduced mythology, to be a complete narrative.

[Woman of War]

Do you guys seriously think that ASoIaF is the kind of storytelling that is going to focus on Sansa as a major character whilst making statements about marriage choices and the like?

I think her character does have some role to play in wrapping the story up, otherwise she wouldn't still be alive, or she would be packed away without POV chapters, like Rickon - but I think that ultimately all of the little family and power struggles occurring in Westeros are going to pale and be cast aside for winter.

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

Wow, I do not know if this theory has ever been brought up, at least it is new to me and it is breathtaking.

Though I personally would not at at all like the idea that Jon is "offering his sister". In that case he could go himself ;) (though, please don't start asking for approval by political correctness Thought Police, Mr. Martin, write what you have to!)

Sansa herself might make that step. I think this might be one of those clearsighted heroic decisions we will see characters make, those decisions most brave when most afraid. Characters growing above themselves. Decisions that annull everything they dreamt about for their future life, for the sake of what has to be done. Decisions of truly epic grandeur.

If Martin intends, and so far it is crackpot of course, to write anything like that I am sure that Sansa would not be given by anyone but make that decision out of free choice, the ultimate beast and beauty story.

Sansa might have a Frozen ending, she might get to rule over The Lands of Always Winter.

Thus somehow re-balancing the world.

And it might not be the obvious like Jon, Dany and Stannis but the meek and downtrodden who are the last heroes, like Sam, Tyrion - and Sansa.

[Annara Snow]

Do you guys seriously think that ASoIaF is the kind of storytelling that is going to focus on Sansa as a major character whilst making statements about marriage choices and the like?

Do you actually think it's not?

If you do, I think we've been reading a different series. Or just misreading this series as something more akin to what you think a fantasy series should be like. ASOIAF is about people, and society, and the choices people make; it's not an epic struggle of "good" vs "evil" where actual individual people don't matter. If it were, then GRRM would have been wasted 95% of the longest popular book series ever on things that have nothing to do with the Others, on actual characters, power struggles, idealistic quests, character development, discussions about what it means to be a true knight or a good king, discussions about power, about love and marriage, about various religions, lots of history, portrayal of the atrocities of war and its consequences on the smallfolk, and tons of social commentary on the class structure and on the position of women, disabled people, and all kinds of outcasts in a patriarchal society.

If you want a dumb one dimensional story without any of this, you've been reading the wrong series.

I think her character does have some role to play in wrapping the story up, otherwise she wouldn't still be alive, or she would be packed away without POV chapters, like Rickon

Yeah, it can't be that Rickon doesn't have a POV because he is four years old....

Has anyone considered that Jon might have to offer her to the great Other as a bride, to bring the Dream of Spring, and the only reason her character has been so marriage centric is to lead to this conclusion?

*facepalm* No, nobody is considering that, for a very good reason: because it's utter bullshit.

And yep, now it's clear you've been reading the wrong series.

[ummester]

Well at least the theory incites diverse opinion - which is exactly the kind of way that characters should be concluded.

But I ask you Annara Snow, what do you think is the ultimate evil in the saga? What single element can be most likened to the One Ring in LotRs?

I assure you, I am reading and invested in exactly the same series - I just think there is one very big part of it that most readers are missing because they can't help but become emotionally invested in this or that character. The fantasy elements are there for a reason, as are the human elements. If it is only about the things you mention above, there is no reason for it to be a fantasy saga.

[RavenKing23]

It would be funny if it occurred and, in all seriousness, the major characters left alive do have to service an ending that wraps up their beginnings and any introduced mythology, to be a complete narrative.

Sounds more like a stroke fantasy to be honest

[ummester]

What's a stroke fantasy?

[Annara Snow]

But I ask you Annara Snow, what do you think is the ultimate evil in the saga?

Humans.

Honestly, if I had to choose between the Others and the Boltons, I'd choose the Others, and I think it would be the right choice. At least the Others will just kill you and maybe turn you into a wight, at which point you probably wouldn't have any consciousness. That's still better than being in Ramsay's hands.

[ummester]

Humans.

Honestly, if I had to choose between the Others and the Boltons (for instance), I'd choose the Others, I think it would be the right choice. At least the Others will just kill you and maybe turn you into a wight, at which point you probably wouldn't have any consciousness. That's sti better than being in Ramsay's hands.

So yea, we agree, the evil in the saga is the humans and their struggle for the throne. They are deliberately think kind of like modern humans and are relatable to us for a reason, right? To make us look at ourselves as we read the books.

All that natural stuff, like the trees and wolves and stuff north of the wall, that's the nice stuff, would you agree? Not the stuff Sansa has been caught up in south of the wall.

She's a Stark, she has special blood - the noblest ending I can think of for her, in line with the way the world is set up, is actually to reside over the beautiful natural world and protect it.

I seriously don't have a favourite character - was just putting it out there to see if Sansa fans could be on board with the idea that her struggles south of the wall may be ultimately pointless.

[Lord Damian]

a gratuitous ending that would be, would'nt it, the repulsive corrupted dwarf, who is actually marrried to "Tysha", gets perhaps the most beautiful girl in Westeros as a wife to do as he pleases. Yeah, that would be a tragic ending for Sansa alright. As far as her "wanting" to be his wife, I cannot see that as his family pretty much destroyed most of hers. No, they might meet again but their marriage will have been undone to do lack of consumation and she will most likely be married and pregnant to and by another man, I think Aegon VI but it could still be a few people, even, cough, ughh, yuck, Littlefinger himself.

[Jellyfish]

but we must see this from Martin's position.

If the author would write Sansa pregnant from Lf then it cannot be absurd for Martin to make Sansa stay with Tyrion willingly.

apart from that I do not really understand the dislike of Tyrion in this forum, it is really not typical for all those fans where I come from, there it is the contrary. People like me who love the books also see Tyrion as one of their favorite characters. this does not mean that Sansa absolutely has to go to bed with him but the dislike of that story turn is not shared by my friends, women between twenty five and fifty. and please do not call us anything like un-feminist or misogynist, we are working women who know about womens problems.