Sympathy for Cersei?

[Cat of the Rivers]

Vargo hoat is too minor of a character to make much impact, but I could say that brienne killing vargo wasn't something that she felt "good" about doing, she did it to survive. Tyrion did not kill tywin to survive.

Ugh the way that littlefinger killed lysa only made me despise him even more. And littlefinger having more power is not a good thing on the slightest.

You said that the closest thing to karmatic justice was Tywin's death. Wasn't Vargo's death karamatic justice? I didn't say that it had much impact on the story, I just said it was karmatic.

Though the way Lysa died was certainly ironic. She was trying to push an innocent girl out the Moon Door believing that she was going to steal LF away from her. Even before that Lysa entrapped Catelyn and her family in the Wo5K for LF and tried to frame Tyrion for Jon's death. She dies the same way for the same man she committed horrible crimes for. I personally thought that Lysa deserved what she got no more no less. And Lysa's the one who gave him the power in the first place.

The point isn't that somebody should feel good about it. It's that the comeuppance these guys receive in a way reflects whatever acts they themselves committed.

I agree completely and thank you for articulating my thoughts. :cheers:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I am sorry, but this yet another proof of double standards you enforce. You speak of abuse when there is none when your favorite character is in question, even though author himself has claimed there is no abuse, but when we actually see abuse on-screen, as undeniable textual proof, you suddenly, don't buy it? I sincerely say that I am not surprised with this abhorrent logic. And I am not trusting Cersei, I also believe what Ned said, how Robert felt etc. This is not solely based on her. But, she is an unsympathetic woman, she can't be abused unless she is ASOIAF's male hero.

Ned said that he slapped her, no one said that this didn't happened. Ned however didn't said that Robert raped her, the only one who said it was Cersei who is a proven liar and who with her words have already said that Robert avoided her and she was *finishing* him off with other ways.

Jon on the other has signs of emotional abuse, has not been proved to be a liar, has not lied to himself.

Claiming sexism? Seriously?

[The King in Black]

I very much disagree with this. I think the WoS's aesthetic purpose is to cause a certain degree of discomfort/confusion by eliciting from the reader sympathy for a despicable character. It forces many readers to examine themes such as what is justice, esp. retributive justice, is sexualized punishment morally OK under any circumstance? And the topic creates hundreds of threads on internet forums arguing about whether the WoS was appropriate and whether we drew satisfaction or sympathy from reading it.

But then why not have her tortured ,or confined for life in comfort at Casterly Rock? Why as you say, such a sexualised form of punishment? Cersei herself takes immense pleasure at humiliating anyone she's wroth on. Notice how the walk doesn't break her. That's because it was part one. The other, if the valonquar thing is jaime, will be for both a personalised ,intimate form of penance (murder - suicide)

Martin doesn't really do "karmic justice" in the sense you seem to suggest. The bad guys don't always get their just desserts, and the relative good characters don't get a deliverance from suffering. In asoiaf, it really is an equal opportunity of suffering and degradation.

I merely suggest that the suffering of the villians has, in some way, a reflection of their deeds.

[Mladen]

so the painful deaths they suffered where just that? Gregor's long suffering at the hands of a Martell, Hoat's manner of death, Jaime's maiming, I must be imagining a lot. The books are driving me crazy, heh.

Just curious, what do you think Cersei believe the HS was going to do to Margaery? What do you think cersei wanted to happen to margery. HUMILIATION. OF ANY AND EVERY FORM. Now, what happened to Cersei?

Aye, but the said long post was me explaining in detail what my view point was and nothing about me being right. But thanks for the heads up anyway.

Yes, you are imagining. First I am not sure you understand how karma works, and tell me what is the karma in having Gregor Clegane being still alive and relatively well while Elia and her children AND Oberyn are dead.

Cersei's WOS is not karma, it is just misogynist message to the world "If I can do this to a Queen, what do you think I can do to you". Cersei wanted the end of Margaery/Tommen marriage without loss of Tyrell support, and it was idiotically done. But, this can't even go under the term of karmic justice because it is just yet another proof that people do horrible things in this world and that innocent people pays a lot.

You welcome...

[UVA]

The point isn't that somebody should feel good about it. It's that the comeuppance these guys receive in a way reflects whatever acts they themselves committed.

Ok, but I'm not seeing this kind of balanced calculus that bad act X is redressed by act Y in equal measure in the series. Can you provide an example? I mean, arguably, Gregor's crimes are repaid by his slow and painful death, but the power of Gregor's death is greatly diminished when one thinks about Oberyn's death, which followed Elia's rape and murder.

ETA the other response:

But then why not have her tortured ,or confined for life in comfort at Casterly Rock? Why as you say, such a sexualised form of punishment? Cersei herself takes immense pleasure at humiliating anyone she's wroth on. Notice how the walk doesn't break her. That's because it was part one. The other, if the valonquar thing is jaime, will be for both a personalised ,intimate form of penance (murder - suicide)

Are you saying that the WoS was a proportional punishment for Cersei's crimes? The WoS wasn't justice for her murders, torture sessions, but rather it was specifically in response to her extra-marital affairs. Is the WoS proportional because it's a sexualized punishment for sexual "crimes"?

It is because we ask these kinds of questions and debate the 'rightness' of the WoS indicates to me that Martin isn't advocating his own version of eye-for-and-eye vengeance with regard to the punishment of bad deeds in the series.

[morticia]

You mustn't have read half a dozen Cersei threads proclaiming her killing Robert's children was justified, she's as smart as Tyrion, better than Tyrion, etc etc, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt. I would've asked you to Google them ,but there are better ways to waste time.

Also, in your specific post you claim Robert drove Cersie to become what she became. Again, that's flat out wrong. I thus naturally assumed that you too belong to the revisionist department

Like I stated in my original post, i'm NEW to this forum. I hardly have time to read through the forum's history. And I didn't claim anything, just mere speculation. I put 'maybe' to welcome a discussion on the matter, as i'm not entirely devoted to the opinion due to Cersei's heinous actions.

If everyone had the same view, these forums would be pretty boring. :thumbsup:

[Mladen]

Ned said that he slapped her, no one said that this didn't happened. Ned however didn't said that Robert raped her, the only one who said it was Cersei who is a proven liar and who with her words have already said that Robert avoided her and she was *finishing* him off with other ways.

Jon on the other has signs of emotional abuse, has not been proved to be a liar, has not lied to himself.

Claiming sexism? Seriously?

LOL... The extent to which these double standards go is amazing. No one who has spent one minute analyzing Jon's character, and I literally mean ONE MINUTE, can claim that he shows any sign of emotional abuse. He is not feeling it, so he is not lying to himself. I suppose that some circles of Jon's fandom are lying to themselves contriving author's explicit words on the manner.

Yes, Cersei is abused woman, and Robert's report on it doesn't even negate it. He didn't even say that he only slapped her once, his report about her "guarding her cunt" is talking about him using force to make her have sex with him. So, this is all Robert's words that support Cersei's claims.

I am not claiming sexism... The double standards painted with sexism is pouring out of that post. It is just objective view on the post, nothing more.

[The King in Black]

Yes, you are imagining. First I am not sure you understand how karma works, and tell me what is the karma in having Gregor Clegane being still alive and relatively well while Elia and her children AND Oberyn are dead.

Cersei's WOS is not karma, it is just misogynist message to the world "If I can do this to a Queen, what do you think I can do to you". Cersei wanted the end of Margaery/Tommen marriage without loss of Tyrell support, and it was idiotically done. But, this can't even go under the term of karmic justice because it is just yet another proof that people do horrible things in this world and that innocent people pays a lot.

You welcome...

Mladen, what am I to do without you? :rolleyes:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

LOL... The extent to which these double standards go is amazing. No one who has spent one minute analyzing Jon's character, and I literally mean ONE MINUTE, can claim that he shows any sign of emotional abuse. He is not feeling it, so he is not lying to himself. I suppose that some circles of Jon's fandom are lying to themselves contriving author's explicit words on the manner.

One doesn't have to think to be beaten up or how what she told then and so on. It is the way he sees himself, is the things he remembers, is how he stands and so on.

Yes, Cersei is abused woman, and Robert's report on it doesn't even negate it. He didn't even say that he only slapped her once, his report about her "guarding her cunt" is talking about him using force to make her have sex with him. So, this is all Robert's words that support Cersei's claims.

Yet some could say that it was a refusal from her part to his constants demands that make him saying that. But because it's Robert it has to be rape.

I am not claiming sexism... The double standards painted with sexism is pouring out of that post. It is just objective view on the post, nothing more.

No you are not and this is obvious. Pity I think that you are much better than this.

[Dofs]

Are you saying that the WoS was a proportional punishment for Cersei's crimes? The WoS wasn't justice for her murders, torture sessions, but rather it was specifically in response to her extra-marital affairs. Is the WoS proportional because it's a sexualized punishment for sexual "crimes"?

It is because we ask these kinds of questions and debate the 'rightness' of the WoS indicates to me that Martin isn't advocating his own version of eye-for-and-eye vengeance with regard to the punishment of bad deeds in the series.

Consider what Cersei did with one guy to make him "confess" that he slept with Margaery. She literally was asking him questions and making him answer the "right" answers while at the moment Qyburn was cutting out that guys nipples, nails, teeth, and an actual eye. And who knows what else Qyburn did with him. Cersei basically went all Ramsay-level (or one can argue that even worse) on him for his "supposed" sex with Margaery that he actually did not do. I will not say that WoS is worse than that.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Consider what Cersei did with one guy to make him "confess" that he slept with Margaery. She literally was asking him questions and making him answer the "right" answers while at the moment Qyburn was cutting out that guys nipples, nails, teeth, and an actual eye. And who knows what else Qyburn did with him. Cersei basically went all Ramsay-level (or one can argue that even worse) on him for his "supposed" sex with Margaery that he actually did not do. I will not say that WoS is worse than that.

That was a disgusting scene and actually made me sick. And consider what happened with Robert's bastards one who was a baby and the young mother who died for trying to save her child and those twins and the mother at Casterley Rock. What Cersei did was horrible.

[Malik Ambar]

Apparently even joking about Cersie's sexuality gets you warning points

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118101-is-it-possible-that-cersie-really-fkd-moon-boy-too/

I swear I came across a post that day were they were discussing how making cersie a villian proved even the High and Mighty Martin himself is Mysoginist!

That's why I turn up as less frequently here now as possible.

[morticia]

Just to clarify, I'm not accusing anyone of being misogynistic.

[JoeyBanana]

Nope. I appreciate the character, mind you, but i don't have the tiniest bit of sympathy for her. Neither do i feel like she "deserves" punishment, by the way. Justice, yes, but i don't want to see her suffer just because she's a horrible person.

But that's not how GRRM rolls and you know it. To deny that he doesn't have a pattern of bad deeds haunting/coming back to bite characters, is like claiming he isn't deliberately trying to deconstruct some fantasy tropes. Authors don't just "write stuff that happens". The good ones, anyway. Although i have to agree that he doesn't do karmic justice in the traditional sense and actually purposefully tries to avoid it. For example, by making some deaths a bit too grizzly to feel happy about the villain dying (Vargo Hoat) or the consequences being devastating/damaging to others/the general populace (Tywin or Robert). Not to mention Theon's story.

Cersei's doom seems inevitable and if you sympathize with her, you have to deal with that. It's kinda pointless to try and tell people they aren't allowed/supposed to look forward to her doom. You won't change their minds, even if we don't like it, and to throw around accusations of sexism or w/e is not helping either.

[Mladen]

Just to clarify, I'm not accusing anyone of being misogynistic.

I am accusing High Septon. And nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

[The King in Black]

Apparently even joking about Cersie's sexuality gets you warning points

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118101-is-it-possible-that-cersie-really-fkd-moon-boy-too/

I swear I came across a post that day were they were discussing how making cersie a villian proved even the High and Mighty Martin himself is Mysoginist!

That's why I turn up as less frequently here now as possible.

Is there someone left who isn't?

[morticia]

I am accusing High Septon. And nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

I meant that I'm not accusing anyone posting on this forum, I agree about HS.

[Mladen]

Is there someone left who isn't?

I genuinely don't understand what people base their claims on when they say Martin is misogynist.

I meant that I'm not accusing anyone posting on this forum, I agree about HS.

Yeah, I got that...

[The King in Black]

I genuinely don't understand what people base their claims on when they say Martin is misogynist.

Apparently, he describes women more graphically during sex scenes. Also, Catelyn was a mother. Also arya is a quintessential tomboy. Also, daenerys might not turn out to be the ultimate hero. Etc, etc.

[Mladen]

Apparently, he describes women more graphically during sex scenes. Also, Catelyn was a mother. Also arya is a quintessential tomboy. Also, daenerys might not turn out to be the ultimate hero. Etc, etc.

OK, I feel like I am lost now, especially with the bolded part, I mean, we might not get an actual hero, male or female...