[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[BearQueen87]

Yeah, and think of all those ignorant pre-Columbian Americans who didn't know that humankind was really saved from the deluge by Atrahasis or Noah or whoever.

I won't absolutely rule out historical diffusionism as an explanation, but a sort of "convergent evolution" just seems much more probable, i.e. that all these societies, including Westeros, came up with their own explanatory frameworks for both the Long Night and its end. And personally, I don't even rule out the possibility that the actions of people over in Essos and beyond might also have had an impact on the end of the Long Night. Given that we don't know how localized or worldwide are the forces of magical balance and imbalance between light/dark, fire/ice, instability/stasis, it makes sense to me that actions might have consequences far away. But then I freely admit that I'm an outlier who thinks that the WWs might not even be free agents, and might be serving someone/something else....

The bolded is a really great point. I really doubt imbalance is localized to just Westeros (that would be rather odd). Out past the 5 Forts near K'Dath for example...is it like a heart of summer? Instead of an icy "desert" you have a summer/hot one? Since the whole world is out of balance--and I think we can say it is given that winter is coming to the Dothraki Sea in aDwD--then who is to say that those local cultural heroes in Essos also didn't play a part in the LN?

[Mithras]

Our scene is Westeros and I doubt we will see those distant regions and how people will handle the new Long Night.

If both of the Long Nights are resulting from some distant people doing gods know what in different places, another group of people did/will do gods know what to end them, does that sound like a good story to you?

We are in Westeros and we do not know what started the LN or what will end it. We will just freeze until it is over.

I don't think so.

[BearQueen87]

Our scene is Westeros and I doubt we will see those distant regions and how people will handle the new Long Night.

If both of the Long Nights are resulting from some distant people doing gods know what in different places, another group of people did/will do gods know what to end them, does that sound like a good story to you?

We are in Westeros and we do not know what started the LN or what will end it. We will just freeze until it is over.

I don't think so.

I said this a page back. Our main theater is Westeros, I agree. But it doesn't mean that this isn't a world wide problem that has world wide implications or solutions. It's very possible that the LN is ended via something done in Westeros, but that everyone everywhere is doing whatever they can to fight the darkness/cold/LN/ect. And as for "does that sound like a good story to you..." actually yes. And it sounds realistic given the global scale of the LN

[Lord Varys]

I think the cause for the Long Night is really in Westeros and no where, and I don't think the heroes of the other cultures did anything all that important. At least insofar as those people were not supporting/joining the guys in Westeros (that this may have been the case is sort of hinted at by the Rhoynish version of the tale).

But the other peoples honestly believe that their mystical heroes did fight and end the Long Night.

I'm also pretty sure that the many peoples and factions about to join Daenerys' cause (Freed Men, reformed Ghiscari, sellswords, Dothraki, Ironborn, Volantene slave soldiers etc.) are a rather big hint that many peoples will end up fighting in the new War for the Dawn.

[BearQueen87]

I think the cause for the Long Night is really in Westeros and no where, and I don't think the heroes of the other cultures did anything all that important. At least insofar as those people were not supporting/joining the guys in Westeros (that this may have been the case is sort of hinted at by the Rhoynish version of the tale).

But the other peoples honestly believe that their mystical heroes did fight and end the Long Night.

I'm also pretty sure that the many peoples and factions about to join Daenerys' cause (Freed Men, reformed Ghiscari, sellswords, Dothraki, Ironborn, Volantene slave soldiers etc.) are a rather big hint that many peoples will end up fighting in the new War for the Dawn.

Which, to me, makes perfect sense and fits with one of GRRM's themes: it's not one person, it's everyone. They have to set aside persona power, glory, language, culture, religion, wants and desires in order to stop whatever is coming

[Mithras]

I think the cause for the Long Night is really in Westeros and no where, and I don't think the heroes of the other cultures did anything all that important. At least insofar as those people were not supporting/joining the guys in Westeros (that this may have been the case is sort of hinted at by the Rhoynish version of the tale).

But the other peoples honestly believe that their mystical heroes did fight and end the Long Night.

I'm also pretty sure that the many peoples and factions about to join Daenerys' cause (Freed Men, reformed Ghiscari, sellswords, Dothraki, Ironborn, Volantene slave soldiers etc.) are a rather big hint that many peoples will end up fighting in the new War for the Dawn.

All more reason to think that those other heroes didnot actually exist. The only real hero is the one who does not go by his name. That is very Georgian.

[BearQueen87]

All more reason to think that those other heroes didnot actually exist. The only real hero is the one who does not go by his name. That is very Georgian.

Except GRRM doesn't believe in just one sole hero to save the entire world. It might be one person who restores balance to good ol' Planetos but that doesn't negate the other heroic acts and deeds done by the other people; it doesn't make them not heroes. Whenever Jon goes off to do "the thing" do you think everyone else is just going to lay down their weapons and calmly wait for him to do "the thing" because he is the one true hero? Or do think the fighting will keep raging and have victories and loses and big moment that will inspire songs and legends?

[Mithras]

Except GRRM doesn't believe in just one sole hero to save the entire world. It might be one person who restores balance to good ol' Planetos but that doesn't negate the other heroic acts and deeds done by the other people; it doesn't make them not heroes. Whenever Jon goes off to do "the thing" do you think everyone else is just going to lay down their weapons and calmly wait for him to do "the thing" because he is the one true hero? Or do think the fighting will keep raging and have victories and loses and big moment that will inspire songs and legends?

I think whatever "the thing" is, people will prevent Jon from doing that (perhaps with good intentions or selfish reasons). "The thing" might be some nasty stuff, which might involve the breaking the sacred laws or the sacrifice of Jon's honor/soul/life etc. Or "the thing" might be some pretty straigthforward solution but nobody gets committed to the cause as much as Jon. People are not able to set their differences aside and unite against common enemies for five books. I think that will be the case in the second LN too. People will fight in the Second Dance deaf to the plea of the NW in the North. I don't expect "good guys banding together and defeating the ultimate bad guy" happening at least up to the end of the story.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, right, the guy the Patrimony of Hyrkoon is most likely named after did not truly exist.

Those various local heroes could have easily existed. For instance, if there was truly a Bloodstone Emperor, and if Yin Tar (or Hyrkoon) did truly overthrow him, and if that event happened around the time of the end of the Long Night, the people would have believed that this heroic deed did end the Long Night.

After all, the Yi Tish did believe that the vice and sin of the people (and their ruler) caused the Long Night. Thus they would also believe that putting an end to those sins could end it.

That is really not all that difficult...

By the way, the end of the Patrimony of Hyrkoon in fire and heat could be a hint that Hyrkoon and his successors may have actually be fire sorcerers of some kind (with Hyrkoon actually being the guy who bore a burning sword). We know that they sacrificed humans to their gods, and if their fire magics grew out of control over the centuries that could explain the rather drastic climate change in that region.

If there is somebody who can hammer home the fact that something wicked is going on in Westeros it should be the coming of Daenerys. She has dragons, the R'hllorians declaring her the savior of the world, and by the time she arrives she should also have Archmaester Marwyn, who effectively knows everything that's going on at the Wall. Not to mention a possible devastating advantage in numbers if she has Jhaqo's complete khalasar as well as the Volantene soldiers and their navy.

If that doesn't do the trick I don't know what will. Especially not if the new Long Night has actually begun by then. If it desperately cold and dark the whole day pretty much no one will want to fight a war for succession, neither in the North nor in the South. Not to mention the fact that people should eventually learn that the Wall has fallen and the Others are coming. If they come, this cannot be dismissed or kept a secret for a very long time...

[Mithras]

Yeah, right, the guy the Patrimony of Hyrkoon is most likely named after did not truly exist.

Romulus was probably not a real person. He is the founder of Rome according to the legend. It is generally accepted that the name Rome comes from Romulus.

Even in Westeros, founding myths are contested by maesters.

[Lord Varys]

That is a problematic analogy. The impression TWoIaF gives is that the advanced civilizations of the East - especially the Sarnori, but the Yi Tish as well - had already reached a level of literacy and reflection good enough to write actual history around the time of the Long Night. That was not the case when the Romans founded their city.

There is also no reason to assume that the Patrimony of Hyrkoon was founded prior to the Long Night, thus it would be easily that it only rose after Hyrkoon did whatever he did during/at the end of the Long Night. And from that era the Yi Tish seem to have pretty accurate accounts.

[History of Westeros]

I'm also pretty sure that the many peoples and factions about to join Daenerys' cause (Freed Men, reformed Ghiscari, sellswords, Dothraki, Ironborn, Volantene slave soldiers etc.) are a rather big hint that many peoples will end up fighting in the new War for the Dawn.

Yes yes yes. She is indeed the real Stallion Who Mounts the World, not her dead child.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Now, we know that Azor Ahai is known under many names in the Far East - my all time favorite is Eldric Shadowchaser - one of them, Hyrkoon the Hero.

Michael Moorcock’s eternal champion goes by many names in many places: sometimes he is Hawkmoon; other times he is Elric. There are others.

George Martin’s eternal champion goes by many names in many places: sometimes he is Hyrkoon; other times he is Eldric. There are others.

Your mission is to find the Corum calque in Martin’s mythology.

Sure, Elric is also connected with Bloodraven. That doesn’t change the relation given above.

[Kingmonkey]

Michael Moorcock’s eternal champion goes by many names in many places: sometimes he is Hawkmoon; other times he is Elric. There are others.

George Martin’s eternal champion goes by many names in many places: sometimes he is Hyrkoon; other times he is Eldric. There are others.

Your mission is to find the Corum calque in Martin’s mythology.

Hyrkoon is surely Yyrkoon, not Hawkmoon. Yohn Royce reminds me a lot of Count Brass, though.

No Corum calque that I can think of, but I wonder if Jaime is going to lose an eye.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Hyrkoon is surely Yyrkoon, not Hawkmoon. Yohn Royce reminds me a lot of Count Brass, though.

No Corum calque that I can think of, but I wonder if Jaime is going to lose an eye.

Perhaps so on Yyrkoon, although that makes me nervous since Yyrkoon and Elric were inverses of each other, which makes you wonder a bit about Bloodraven.

Mythology presents us with no shortage of gods, demigods, and heroes who have only one hand or only one eye, but not so many who have only one of both. Nuada Silver-Hand and Tyr come to mind for the hand, and in Zelazny’s Amber we see Corwyn’s brother Benedict gain a silver hand. But I cannot think of any with a hand of gold; surely it would be too heavy.

I mistrust Jaime’s artificial hand; I keep waiting for it to animate maliciously. Perhaps he’ll blame his sister’s death on it; I know I would.

[Kingmonkey]

Perhaps so on Yyrkoon, although that makes me nervous since Yyrkoon and Elric were inverses of each other, which makes you wonder a bit about Bloodraven.

Mythology presents us with no shortage of gods, demigods, and heroes who have only one hand or only one eye, but not so many who have only one of both. Nuada Silver-Hand and Tyr come to mind for the hand, and in Zelazny’s Amber we see Corwyn’s brother Benedict gain a silver hand. But I cannot think of any with a hand of gold; surely it would be too heavy.

I mistrust Jaime’s artificial hand; I keep waiting for it to animate maliciously. Perhaps he’ll blame his sister’s death on it; I know I would.

I don't think we should read too much into Eldric and Hyrkoon other than GRRM likes the Elric books and wanted to namecheck Elric and Yyrkoon.

I cannot, offhand, think of any mythological precedents to Corum's hand and eye double. Jaime's golden hand is surely a nod (pun intended) to Nuada and indeed the Welsh equivalent, Llud Law Ereint, who Corum sort of became in the second series. Gold weighs almost twice as much per volume as silver, so no doubt a gold hand would be pretty heavy. Doesn't Jaime have gold armour? That would be insanely heavy and rather useless. I'd imagine they're both just lightly plated.

Will Jaime's hand go all Dr Strangelove on him? Possibly. Qyburn made it, and Qyburn is into animating dead things. We're edging back into Corum territory there, though.

[libmanj]

Hey all, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, as I've got to go to sleep, but I had a thought today, and I want to get it down before sleeping. Apologies if I say something that's already been said or something that's already proven not to make sense.

So my thought draws together a few different ideas tossed around in the world book:

- Hyrkoon the Hero is from the Yi Ti (edit: My mistake, he's from the Bone Mountains, but still Eastern Essos)

- the world is round

- there are no children in Asshai

I'm of the opinion that AA, LH, and Hyrkoon the Hero are all the same person; I believe that there was one hero that led the charge to save the world from the Others in the War for the Dawn. If the earth of ice and fire is round, then if you travel to the East beyond Asshai, you may wind up at the Wall, and the way to get there through the mountains might be by riding a dragon. Hyrkoon the Hero was from Yi Ti, but he may have hopped on a dragon and flown northeast to the Wall, joining the Night's Watch to fight.

I also wonder why there are no children in Asshai. That would seem to be the result of some kind of sorcery. Well, if we trust the TV show or at least take the hint of Craster's missing male children, we know the Others steal children (likely for conversion into more Others, again, if we trust the TV show). Maybe the Others had made it all the way to Asshai (the world is round) during the War for the Dawn, and they were stealing children. After the war, perhaps some sorcerer decided that if there were no children in Asshai, the Others would not come there should they ever return to the earth. Thus, the rationale for the dark spell that robbed Asshai of all its future children.

Thoughts?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Well...nothing is confirmed or anything but I'm pretty sure that Hyrkoon was from Patrimony of Hyrkoon. Most probably, he was it's founder.

Yin Tar is named as one of the many names of Azor Ahai, we know that Yi Ti was saved from the Long Night, thanks to a woman with monkey's tail and Yin Tar sounds like other YiTish names we've seen. So yeah.

There are no children in Asshai...well it's suppose to be mysterious and creepy (which it is) and many alternative solutions and answers can be found...

My favorite is that local Asshai'i keep their children at home because some random batshit sorceror can steal and sacrifice them for some fcked up ritual. And with their veils and masks, Asshai'i seems to have a secrective culture, so it might explain why children are kept home until an age.

[mindcrash]

Hey all, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, as I've got to go to sleep, but I had a thought today, and I want to get it down before sleeping. Apologies if I say something that's already been said or something that's already proven not to make sense.

So my thought draws together a few different ideas tossed around in the world book:

- Hyrkoon the Hero is from the Yi Ti (edit: My mistake, he's from the Bone Mountains, but still Eastern Essos)

- the world is round

- there are no children in Asshai

I'm of the opinion that AA, LH, and Hyrkoon the Hero are all the same person; I believe that there was one hero that led the charge to save the world from the Others in the War for the Dawn. If the earth of ice and fire is round, then if you travel to the East beyond Asshai, you may wind up at the Wall, and the way to get there through the mountains might be by riding a dragon. Hyrkoon the Hero was from Yi Ti, but he may have hopped on a dragon and flown northeast to the Wall, joining the Night's Watch to fight.

I also wonder why there are no children in Asshai. That would seem to be the result of some kind of sorcery. Well, if we trust the TV show or at least take the hint of Craster's missing male children, we know the Others steal children (likely for conversion into more Others, again, if we trust the TV show). Maybe the Others had made it all the way to Asshai (the world is round) during the War for the Dawn, and they were stealing children. After the war, perhaps some sorcerer decided that if there were no children in Asshai, the Others would not come there should they ever return to the earth. Thus, the rationale for the dark spell that robbed Asshai of all its future children.

Thoughts?

Sorry to quibble, but the Wall and the Night's Watch didn't exist until after the Long Night.

[libmanj]

Sorry to quibble, but the Wall and the Night's Watch didn't exist until after the Long Night.

Please quibble. My mistake on the Wall/Night's Watch. But Hyrkoon still could have made it to the Land of Always Winter to push back the Others in any case.