[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Free Northman Reborn]

I don't understand some people. Here we have a situation where we have an existential threat to humankind, in the form of a Winter that descends from the North and can last for 10 years. During this time, days are short, and nights are long. It is confirmed that the phenomenon is most severe in the far North, but affects all regions of the world equally that are on the same latitude. We see that as Winter descends on Westeros, so too it descends on Braavos, with the canals starting to freeze over, and so too on the Dothraki Sea, with the grasslands turning yellow.

So if there is a 10 year long Winter in Westeros, there will be a 10 year long Winter in Essos. It is utterly obvious that we are dealing with a World Wide phenomenon here, that has left a historical imprint on every nation in the known world.

Furthermore, this phenomenon is linked to weird, unnatural lopsided seasons, across the entire known world. And we have it confirmed that before the Long Night the seasons were normal.

The Long Night might have been the most severe example of this phenomenon ever, but it is pretty clear that it is the same event that is described in different ways by every culture on the planet.

This need to try and find alternative, convoluted explanations for what is a rather obvious state of affairs does boggle the mind somewhat.

[Mithras]

Hyrkoon and Eldric Shadowchaser (different names of AA) are obvious references to Elric of Melnibone and his cousin Yyrkoon. Elric has a sword named Stormbringer just like AA/Eldric has Lightbringer. The sword Stormbringer has a “brother” sword which is called Mournblade and it belongs to Yyrkoon.

Stormbringer is the name of the infamous black sword featured in a number of fantasy stories by the author Michael Moorcock. Created by the forces of Chaos, it is described as a huge, black sword covered with strange runes carved deep into its blade. It is wielded by the doomed albino emperor Elric of Melniboné.

This powerful enchanted black blade is a member of a demon race that takes on the form of a sword, and as such is an agent of Chaos. Stormbringer's edge is capable of cutting through virtually any material not protected by potent sorcery, and it can drink the soul from (and thereby kill) an unprotected human upon delivering any wound, even a scratch. Its most distinctive features are that it has a mind and will of its own, and that it feeds upon the souls of those it kills. Elric loathes the sword but is almost helpless without the strength and vitality it confers on him.

Stormbringer's hunger for souls is such that it frequently betrays Elric by creating a bloodlust in his mind, turning in his hands and killing friends and lovers. The cursed nature of the sword adds to Elric's guilt and self-loathing even as he feels pleasure when the stolen lifeforce enters his body.

Stormbringer has a "brother" sword named Mournblade, which was at one time wielded by Elric's cousin and enemy Yyrkoon. It is identical to Stormbringer in most regards. Later stories reveal that there are thousands of identical demons, all taking the form of swords. Three such sibling blades appear in The Revenge of the Rose and many more "brother blades" are seen in the novel Stormbringer, but only Mournblade and Stormbringer are named.

We should also note that Elric is an avatar of the Eternal Champion who has countless avatars in Moorcock’s Multiverse.

The fictional Multiverse, which consists of several universes, many layered dimensions, spheres, and alternative worlds, is the place where the eternal struggle between Law and Chaos, the two main forces of Moorcock's worlds, takes place. In all these dimensions and worlds, these forces constantly war for supremacy. Since the victory of Law or Chaos would cause the Multiverse either to become permanently static or totally formless, the Cosmic Balance enforces certain limits which the powers of Law and Chaos violate at their peril. Law, Chaos, and the Balance are active, but seemingly non-sentient, forces which empower various champions and representatives.

The Eternal Champion, a Hero who exists in all dimensions, times and worlds, is the one who is chosen by fate to fight for the Cosmic Balance; however, he often does not know of his role, or, even worse, he struggles against it, never to succeed. Since his role is to intervene when either Law or Chaos have gained an excess of power, he is always doomed to be surrounded by strife and destruction, although he may go through long periods of relative quiet.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

is this what AAR/PtwP is supposed to do? convince everyone to drop the petty game of thrones and fight the true threat?

The secret song = Song of ice and fire.

[Mithras]

is this what AAR/PtwP is supposed to do? convince everyone to drop the petty game of thrones and fight the true threat?

PtwP=Lightbringer=Jon+Drogon

AAR=Davos+Bran+Sam

So, yes. That is one of the things AARs are supposed to do.

[Hrafntýr]

I don't understand some people. Here we have a situation where we have an existential threat to humankind, in the form of a Winter that descends from the North and can last for 10 years. During this time, days are short, and nights are long. It is confirmed that the phenomenon is most severe in the far North, but affects all regions of the world equally that are on the same latitude. We see that as Winter descends on Westeros, so too it descends on Braavos, with the canals starting to freeze over, and so too on the Dothraki Sea, with the grasslands turning yellow.

So if there is a 10 year long Winter in Westeros, there will be a 10 year long Winter in Essos. It is utterly obvious that we are dealing with a World Wide phenomenon here, that has left a historical imprint on every nation in the known world.

Furthermore, this phenomenon is linked to weird, unnatural lopsided seasons, across the entire known world. And we have it confirmed that before the Long Night the seasons were normal.

The Long Night might have been the most severe example of this phenomenon ever, but it is pretty clear that it is the same event that is described in different ways by every culture on the planet.

This need to try and find alternative, convoluted explanations for what is a rather obvious state of affairs does boggle the mind somewhat.

I'm not sure who exactly you are arguing against here! I think everyone has agreed that the Long Night is a worldwide phenomenon. The only area of difference seemed to be whether it originated north of the Wall in Westeros, and, I suppose, whether the Others were its orchestrators.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'm not sure who exactly you are arguing against here! I think everyone has agreed that the Long Night is a worldwide phenomenon. The only area of difference seemed to be whether it originated north of the Wall in Westeros, and, I suppose, whether the Others were its orchestrators.

Well no, some people appear to be arguing that the Long Night is referring merely to periods of "social darkness" or other turmoil in the past of various nations.

As for the Others. I don't think they necessarily cause the Winter, but that they thrive in it, and perhaps if they acheive certain strategic goals, can cause it to last forever. What those strategic goals may be, we do not know.

For all we know they need to make it to Ashai, and the only way they can get there, is if the territory they have to pass through is cold enough. Maybe by killing enough humans, they can use blood magic to extend the severity of Winter further and further South.

After all, I still believe that all magic is at its root powered by blood magic. By the lifeforce of living things. The different orders of magic simply harness that lifeforce in different ways, be it manifesting that power through Fire, or Ice or Earth or Air, Water etc.

[butterbumps!]

Well no, some people appear to be arguing that the Long Night is referring merely to periods of "social darkness" or other turmoil in the past of various nations.

1. Because those other tales of Long Nights (not to mention a ton of other myths) are framed in political terms. The usurpation by the Bloodstone Emperor is thought to be the origin of the Yi Tish's LN.

2. Because in light of how long winters and Others don't appear to be Essosi things, we don't really know what a Long Night manifests as in these other places that have records of Long Nights/ darkness.

3. It's also unclear-- and can be argued either way-- whether these egregious Long Nights we hear of were all part of the same event. I should add that I'm not really arguing either way, only saying that it's not self evident right now.

[Hrafntýr]

I understood those posters to be saying that those were some of the ways in which the Long Night is interpreted/explained/mythologized in those cultures, and further, that those cultural interpretations might not be wrong, if we think that there isn't a hard and fast divide between the game of thrones and the magical (un)balancing act. If, as you say, it all boils down to lifeforce, then elemental forces might in fact also be acting through human politics. There's an awful lot of folks around here on the lookout for a promised Prince, after all.

ETA: Ah, sorry, butterbumps!, I didn't realize when I wrote my earlier post that you weren't convinced that the Long Night was a worldwide phenomenon. Or perhaps more accurately, that all the accounts with seemingly Long Night-ish aspects refer to the same event. It's a respectable perspective, of course, analogous to the fact that all the world's flood myths probably don't refer to some global event.

[Lord Varys]

It is not said that the Long Night in Yi Ti only consisted of vice, sinful behavior, and kinslaying. It is however believed that this was the cause why the Maiden-Made-Of-Light turned her back on the world and the Lion of the Night was unleashed.

I take that as a sign that the Yi Tish suffered from cold and night the same way Westeros did - minus the Others.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Hyrkoon and Eldric Shadowchaser (different names of AA) are obvious references to Elric of Melnibone and his cousin Yyrkoon. Elric has a sword named Stormbringer just like AA/Eldric has Lightbringer. The sword Stormbringer has a “brother” sword which is called Mournblade and it belongs to Yyrkoon.

I figured that to just be a shoutout.(Bloodraven is supposed to be a bit of an Elric shoutout as well.) Do you see a deeper significance? After all, the Long Winter and the Others seem to bear a much stronger resemblance to the second half of the Corum saga, if we're talking Moorcock.

[AdmiralKyrd]

There are also possibilities like stories of the Rat Cook and Bael the Bard are linked to the Night's King tales in some way. It's known that Winterfell purged all knowledge of the Night's King and specifically mentioned that Bael the Bard isn't known in the South anymore. The Night's King also references taking a pale, white bride, and there is the tale of the Barrow King in TWOIAF who is referenced be the father of the "Corpse Queen." There's also the tales of Durran that speak about wedding a goddess, but they kill all his family and set off a war. The Rat Cook is someone who was in the Nightfort, the same location of the Night's King in the tales, and was turned into a white rat, to always eat his children. Yet strangely, the tale ends with him having many descendants roaming the Nightfort. This is possibly a reference to why the Night's King can't have children so he takes Craster's sons.

It's all a very twisted set of tales, and who knows which origin stories might truly factor into the truth behind the LN, or just be separate legends, but it sounds like there might be some kind of forbidden love between a White Walker and a human that got involved in the first Long Night and set things off.

[Clueless Northman]

I figured that to just be a shoutout.(Bloodraven is supposed to be a bit of an Elric shoutout as well.) Do you see a deeper significance? After all, the Long Winter and the Others seem to bear a much stronger resemblance to the second half of the Corum saga, if we're talking Moorcock.

Well, obviously Martin has a bit of fun, his "Last Hero" being his version of the "Eternal Champion"; every major civilization has its own version of Azor Ahai, complete with name, heroic actions, specific enemy.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

is this what AAR/PtwP is supposed to do? convince everyone to drop the petty game of thrones and fight the true threat?

The secret song = Song of ice and fire.

Oh dear lord! They're going to hold hands around the nightfire and sing Kum-ba-yah, aren't they?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Oh dear lord! They're going to hold hands around the nightfire and sing Kum-ba-yah, aren't they?

ok you realize i didn´t meant they were going to literally sing a song?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

ok you realize i didn´t meant they were going to literally sing a song?

Yes.

[butterbumps!]

And the Starks were called Kings of Winter...maybe they were the equivalent of the Valyrians during the Long Night. Maybe they went bya different name. Maybe Winterfell is much older than we think. Who knows?

I think we have some similar ideas about this. In particular, this is an angle I've been trying to pitch for a while. It appears that the Starks were not always the lovable protagonists who worship the old gods and can warg that we know and love today. As you point out, they were called the Kings of Winter, and according to the history, they waged war on various CotF and CotF allies, including, but not limited to the Warg King. Not to mention, that giant ice wall made of magic seems to interfere with CotF powers like skinchanging, so I've had some doubts about whether it was truly meant to block Others as opposed to old gods magic.

Very interesting too that the Stark and Bolton rivalry goes back to the time of the Long Night. I'm not sure how this all fits together, but I've long suspected a human origin of the Others, and I rather think they were a magical effect of some great northern house (my guess is the Starks, or what became the Starks), to aid in their consolidation of power.

ETA: Ah, sorry, butterbumps!, I didn't realize when I wrote my earlier post that you weren't convinced that the Long Night was a worldwide phenomenon. Or perhaps more accurately, that all the accounts with seemingly Long Night-ish aspects refer to the same event. It's a respectable perspective, of course, analogous to the fact that all the world's flood myths probably don't refer to some global event.

Oh, no problem! I don't have a problem with the single-event interpretation, and I rather like it, tbh. It fits with what Martin did with the comet-- a simultaneous worldwide phenomenon that was imbued with meaning differently depending on one's perspective. I was more speaking against the position that a single, simultaneous event was definitively confirmed.

It is not said that the Long Night in Yi Ti only consisted of vice, sinful behavior, and kinslaying. It is however believed that this was the cause why the Maiden-Made-Of-Light turned her back on the world and the Lion of the Night was unleashed.

I take that as a sign that the Yi Tish suffered from cold and night the same way Westeros did - minus the Others.

The Long Night of the Yi Ti was described as a period of oppression, sorcery and slavery. The sin of kinslaying is thought to be what set it off, but the period itself was described as the Emperor's "Reign of Terror."

Yes. I understand that. I misspoke (mistyped?) based on what I feel the SSM means, rather than on what it actually says. Knowing GRRM he could have been answering about one thing but not the other. He is a tricksy authorses. :D

Oh no problem, LB. I think he's definitely tricksy in most of the SSMs I've looked at. The questioner probably meant the Long Night, but then it looked like Martin answered what was literally asked, based on the transcript.

[Lord Varys]

It is not stated explicitly that the Lion of the Night punished the populace just by terror and oppression. That's a part of it, yes, but this punishment was also caused by the actions of the Bloodstone Emperor. His actions and attitude towards his people were not part of the punishment.

[butterbumps!]

It is not stated explicitly that the Lion of the Night punished the populace just by terror and oppression. That's a part of it, yes, but this punishment was also caused by the actions of the Bloodstone Emperor. His actions and attitude towards his people were not part of the punishment.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.

I'm looking at the passage right now.

The Blood Betrayal is what the Yi Ti say caused the Lion of Night to punish the wickedness of men.

The Emperor's reign-- as in, once he ascended to power immediately following the Betrayal-- is marked by sorcery, oppression and slavery.

The Maiden-Made-of-Light's turning her back on the people is contemporaneous to the Bloodstone Emperor's "reign of terror."

I'm not making a claim that the Yi Ti believe the Emperor's tyranny was part of the Maiden's punishment or anything. I'm saying that their Long Night has a component of political dark ages.

[Lord Varys]

Yes, a component. I'm saying that during this long reign of terror the populace of Yi Ti was also plagued by cold and darkness. That is not stated literally, but unless the Maiden-Made-Of-Light and the Lion of the Night have no literally jobs as deities (like Goddess of the Sun, God of the Night) it is very likely that the literal meaning of the punishment of the Lion is literal darkness and, coming with it, cold.

Nothing suggests that the Lion of the Night punished only by, say, 'hardening the heart of the Bloodstone Emperor', and thus worsening his reign of terror.

[butterbumps!]

Yes, a component. I'm saying that during this long reign of terror the populace of Yi Ti was also plagued by cold and darkness. That is not stated literally, but unless the Maiden-Made-Of-Light and the Lion of the Night have no literally jobs as deities (like Goddess of the Sun, God of the Night) it is very likely that the literal meaning of the punishment of the Lion is literal darkness and, coming with it, cold.

Nothing suggests that the Lion of the Night punished only by, say, 'hardening the heart of the Bloodstone Emperor', and thus worsening his reign of terror.

I'm only pointing to the correlation, not necessarily causation.

But warmth/ cold isn't implicated in this. The Lion of Night is specifically a face of Death, so it would appear that the Yi Ti are talking about a period of widespread death. Whether this death is a product of literal darkness or something more metaphoric, like widespread suffering at the hand of the Emperor, dark magic, or even something like plague, it's not clear.

In general, I tend to think the magical imbalances may have something to do with human abuse of magic-- hiltless swords and such. I'm not sure if this would be correlation or causation (or which is cause or effect), but there seems to be some sort of connection between the two. Kinslaying and slavery seem connected as well-- many forms of sorcery appeal to slavery in some form (the dead as the Other's thralls, Valyrian slaves, Blood Emperor's slavery), and I've been long curious about whether kinslaying might be an especially potent way of tapping into magic (and why it's such a devastating curse). Those, along with guest right, are what's held as the most egregious sins by the North, and in a story like this, the rationale for that could have more than simple ethics at play.

Point being, I do not see "political darkness" and "magical darkness" as being mutually exclusive. My hypothesis is that when people start tapping into bloodmagic for the purpose of expanding their power abusively, it throws balance off-kilter.

What comes first is really a very legitimate question. Did some earth shattering event create the right conditions for humans everywhere to start tapping into magic at the same time, and is this "darkness" the result of that-- as in, did the "darkness" come first, and did that enable certain people to exploit the conditions of the Long Night for political ends? Or is it the result of humans abusing that power at all corners of the earth simultaneously, ushering in a worldwide Long Night? Or are these various Long Night accounts actually different accounts telling the same story of civilization after civilization rising via magic, abusing it, and unleashing monstrous consequences at different times? Or sundry other iterations.