[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Mithras]

Lomas Longstrider reports that, even in far Asshai-by-the-Shadow, there were merchants who asked him if it was true that the “Lion Lord” lived in a palace of solid gold and that crofters collected a wealth of gold simply by plowing their fields.

News, tales come and go. People are not isolated from each other.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't think the LH was the first dragonrider or ever used a dragon, from the world book we know that the intercession for the Long Night to end had to do with the CotF and not dragons. If there was any first dragonrider it seems likely it was from Asshai or Valyria.

Also CotF have 3 fingers, I don't think they can reproduce with human considering even five fingered animals cannot.

[cgf]

I don't think the LH was the first dragonrider or ever used a dragon, from the world book we know that the intercession for the Long Night to end had to do with the CotF and not dragons. If there was any first dragonrider it seems likely it was from Asshai or Valyria.

Also CotF have 3 fingers, I don't think they can reproduce with human considering even five fingered animals cannot.

Normal genetics don't apply to grrm's world, otherwise Cat wouldn't have birthed so many redheads.

They obviously learned the LH legend from the local First Men with whom they certainly formed cultural and blood relations. We also learn tha during the Andal invasions, Theon Stark raided Andalos in Essos. Also some Andals might have voyaged back and forth because they were seafaring people. I think that is how the legend of the LH found its way to Essos.

We also see how some Hoares tried to combine the Faith and the Drowned God. First he proposed that 8 gods exist, which no one liked. Then he proposed that the Drowned God is the Stranger (which was better).

It's just as obvious for them to have had their inter-breeding myths that were streamlined to those that they were hearing from the FM of the north. Same reason why there's so many different myths about great floods, fires, etc., these universal experiences don't all have to point to the same inspiring event, but to a similar type of event. Similarly the founding myths of the various great houses who came to rule having to do with establishing their power through marriages with powerful natives makes sense and doesn't have to originate from the same cross-breeding.

[David C. Hunter]

I thought the same, lol.

But you know, it's kind of funny to me that the Yi Ti Bloodstone Emperor kills his sister to gain power, and he's the devil who causes "the darkness." So, here kinslayer => bad.

But Azor Ahai, who kills his wife to gain a WMD, is the story's hero who brings light back into the world. Here, "kinslaying" => good.

I'm really kind of thinking this might be one of those eyes of the beholder thing, lol.

The only ones who view AA as a hero are the followers of the Red God. It makes sense because they are perpatuating their own dogma, but it seems like a setup for a red herring. As in, which side was the good side?

[Lord Varys]

There is no tale of 'the Last Hero' in the east. They have their own tales.

Brandon the Builder is descended from Brandon of the Bloody Blade, not some guy who may have never and existed and became the Winged Knight.

[Free Northman Reborn]

There is no tale of 'the Last Hero' in the east. They have their own tales.

Brandon the Builder is descended from Brandon of the Bloody Blade, not some guy who may have never and existed and became the Winged Knight.

Was Brandon of the Bloody Blade a Stark? And might he be related to the guy who has his priestess sacrifice the captive in front of Winterfell's Heart Tree, back in the very beginning, in Bran's vision?

[Lord Varys]

Brandon of the Bloody Blade is a son of Garth Greenhand. He warred heavily against the Children of the Forest and the giants.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Brandon of the Bloody Blade is a son of Garth Greenhand. He warred heavily against the Children of the Forest and the giants.

It makes perfect sense that the Greenhand would predate Brandon the Builder, given that the First Men would have arrived in the South earlier than in the North. Note however that this does not mean that the Gardeners are an older family than the Starks, unless there is more info I am not privy to yet, given that they also only claim descent from Garth Greenhand, rather than him being the first member of their family.

[Lord Varys]

You have checked the Garth Greenhand thread here, I guess? One legend claims Garth was the First Man in Westeros...

[butterbumps!]

The only ones who view AA as a hero are the followers of the Red God. It makes sense because they are perpatuating their own dogma, but it seems like a setup for a red herring. As in, which side was the good side?

Yea, that's my position, too. But I often find myself debating against the position that "Azor Ahai" = "one true hero" on here.

There probably wasn't a "good" side to any of these. What's "good" is entirely dependent on one's perspective. Some kind of fire power allegedly brought down the darkness of this Bloodstone guy's slavery racket, and fire power went on to be come the world's largest slaving racket. It seems evident that it's not inherently "good."

We know a ton of people have magical abilities in these books. And we know their history is basically an endless power struggle between competing kings, conquests, slavery and so forth. And we know for certain that magic was used by people in some of these cases of political struggle, and legends make appeals to magical involvement in others more ancient in history.

Point being, I tend to think no magical side is inherently the "good" one. I really kind of think it's all fundamentally about political conflicts, and using whatever resource (magical or otherwise) available to you in those enterprises.

[Free Northman Reborn]

You have checked the Garth Greenhand thread here, I guess? One legend claims Garth was the First Man in Westeros...

Yes, but I don't take at face value the idea that Garth was the First Man ever in Westeros. Most likely he was the first major hero or war chief that won major victories against the Children or whatever, but in a migration that stretched over many thousands of miles and involved many centuries, I highly doubt that the first scout ever to set foot in Westeros made it all the way across the South and founded the first major dynasty of the New World. Most likely the first man that set foot in Westeros fell down a cliff somewhere on the Arm, or died of a scorpion sting in the deserts of Dorne.

[Mithras]

There is no tale of 'the Last Hero' in the east. They have their own tales.

Brandon the Builder is descended from Brandon of the Bloody Blade, not some guy who may have never and existed and became the Winged Knight.

Garth Greenhand seems like the fertility god the First Men brought from Essos. Brandon of the Bloody Blade being the father of BtB is very unlikely.

There is no tale of the Last Hero in Essos because they forged their own tales according to what came from Westeros. And the tale was surely disfigured on the way to Essos.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

She doesn't. Or at least hadn't initially. She has the prophesy of "born amidst smoke and salt, bleeding star, wake dragons from stone," and based on her knowledge, thought Dragonstone was the referent. She doesn't connect AA's fight against darkness to the Others until that vision of the Fist of the First Men Stannis has-- she later tells Jon that his war (against the Others) may be the same one her hero is supposed to fight.

No one else who names AA as a hero has connected his darkness to the ice Others. And the eastern accounts of the LN have more to do with "darkness" than cold-- in fact, coldness doesn't seem to be a thing in these accounts, with the exception of the Rhoyne's freezing in places. The Westeros LN is about extreme cold, and not really blackout darkness. By contrast, Asshai seems to lack cold, and their darkness absorbs all light (apparently).

But there are dragon eggs (and possibly dragons) in Asshai. And given that most eggs are petrified (turned to stone?) and that AA seems to be an Asshai'i guy, why would she go looking anywhere other than Asshai or areas near it for AAR? It just does not make any sense to me that she would have chosen Westeros, and a Westerosi who she thinks belongs on the throne, unless there's more to it than what we've got. Why would it matter who sits the Iron Throne? Why helps Stannis with that? Why not tell him his role is bigger than that of a mere king of one continent?

I'm aware that no one else has connected AA to the Others at all. That's why I'm intrigued at why Mel chose Westeros, when it seems like all the Essosi red priests are rallying the people for Daenerys.

We know from an early SSM that the Long Night affected the whole world, but Westeros got the brunt of it because they were closest to the source of the problem. That would be why they also got the extreme cold, AND darkness, whereas Essos only got darkness and slightly cooler temps maybe. But defeating that Long Night would still have required a hero from Asshai to journey to Westeros to save everyone.

Asshai itself is not necessarily dark. It's Asshai by the Shadow, not Asshai in the shadow. It makes sense that a heroic legend of a place "by the shadow" would have a sword associated with light, but if the sword is burning, as Mel seems to think, it's also associated with heat by default, which ties it back to the Others and the cold. Obsidian is also called frozen fire. And a burning sword should kill a lot of wights, if not a lot of Others.

Just trying to figure out how all the little pieces will combine to create the final puzzle picture.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Normal genetics don't apply to grrm's world, otherwise Cat wouldn't have birthed so many redheads.

I wouldn't say it doesn't apply necessarily, especially since the idea proposed by the Maester for Valyrian's distinct look, is a case of bottleneck population, which happens in our world.

[Lord Varys]

No, they did not. The people in Yi Ti couldn't care less what unwashed savages in the West thought.

[butterbumps!]

We know from an early SSM that the Long Night affected the whole world, but Westeros got the brunt of it because they were closest to the source of the problem. That would be why they also got the extreme cold, AND darkness, whereas Essos only got darkness and slightly cooler temps maybe. But defeating that Long Night would still have required a hero from Asshai to journey to Westeros to save everyone.

Would it be possible to locate the SSM where he says this? I recall a comment about how the world was affected by a "long night," but I don't recall his stating that the Westerosi LN was the source of the problem.

On the other points, Asshai itself was said to be a city that seems to drown light. Their main form of magic is shadow-binding. If they draw strength from shadows-- the way Rhoynar do with water or Valyrians with fire-- why would they celebrate a guy with power to destroy their shadows?

There's probably more to Mel's story in terms of why she set her sights on Dragonstone. Though, she's been on a quest since we've met her to find/ make dragons. We know she went to Asshai, which is one of the locations associated with dragons. After Asshai, post-Doom, Dragonstone would be the next best place to find some trace of them. I think her quest for AA has had much to do with a search for dragons in order to fight against some unspecified darkness.

[Mithras]

Garth Greenhand seems like the fertility god the First Men brought from Essos.

Each new year, the prince must deflower two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields. This ancient ritual— perhaps arising from the mysterious origins of pre-Valyrian Pentos— is meant to ensure the continued prosperity of Pentos on land and at sea. Yet, if there is famine or if a war is lost, the prince becomes not a ruler but a sacrifice; his throat is slit so that the gods might be appeased. And then a new prince is chosen who might bring more fortune to the city.

Martin, George R.R.; Garcia, Elio; Antonsson, Linda (2014-10-28). The World of Ice & Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 7454-7457). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The Pentoshi Princes (a practice stemming long before the Valyrians) are very much related to a fertility god type religion. I think this was the religion of the First Men in Essos.

[J. Stargaryen]

The name Mountains of the Morn caught my eye. I guess it first appeared in the LoIaF, but I hadn't heard of it before. But anyway, just beyond Ashai, with all of its shadowy darkness and whatnot, you have the Mountains of the Morn[ing].

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Would it be possible to locate the SSM where he says this? I recall a comment about how the world was affected by a "long night," but I don't recall his stating that the Westerosi LN was the source of the problem.

It doesn't say that exactly, but that was what I thought when I read it. Here's the quote:

xaosx Mr Martin, why does Westeros seem the only place effected by the Others and the long winters? The other parts of the world seem not to care.

George_RR_Martin Westeros is not the only place affected, but it's affected most strongly, because it's the only landmass that extends that far north. The other continent is bounded to the north by an icy polar sea.

Here's the link. It's a long chat. This one is somewhere around half-way through. Lots of little bits of info in that transcript.

I interpret this quote to mean that the problem comes from the North/Lands of Always Winter/Heart of Winter. So it makes sense that to fix it you have to go to the landmass that is near/attached to the place where the trouble is originating.

[butterbumps!]

It doesn't say that exactly, but that was what I thought when I read it. Here's the quote:

Here's the link. It's a long chat. This one is somewhere around half-way through. Lots of little bits of info in that transcript.

I interpret this quote to mean that the problem comes from the North/Lands of Always Winter/Heart of Winter. So it makes sense that to fix it you have to go to the landmass that is near/attached to the place where the trouble is originating.

That quote is tricky. Note that the questioner doesn't refer to "the Long Night," but rather the long winters and Others. It tells us that other parts experience cold too, but that the extreme winter conditions impact Westeros most strongly. Which makes sense, as the landmass of Westeros extends into what appears to be an arctic region.

The character of a "long night" might be expressed differently across regions. It doesn't mean that the Westerosi expression-- involving Others and cold-- is the "true" one, or source of an all-consuming Long Night. It might simply be the expression of what a great darkness or "Long Night" manifests as in Westeros.