[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Lord Varys]

I'd say that this is sort of self-evident. If the Others and the second War for the Dawn are going to be a major theme, it would make little sense from a story-telling POV to not make the Others and the cause of the Long Night and the freak seasons heavily interconnected.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Some of these reasons add up to an argument in favor of there having been a singular world-wide Long Night.

But none of this adds up to an argument for Westeros being the source of that LN.

If anything does support the claim that Westeros was the source of the Long Winter/Night, I would say it was Bran's coma dream of the Land of Always Winter, and beyond. I've always argued that the combined effects of the Others' Ice Magic and the Valyrians' Fire Magic (which were probably contemporaneous) was the root cause of the LW/LN and the wonky seasons.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

That quote is tricky. Note that the questioner doesn't refer to "the Long Night," but rather the long winters and Others. It tells us that other parts experience cold too, but that the extreme winter conditions impact Westeros most strongly. Which makes sense, as the landmass of Westeros extends into what appears to be an arctic region.

The character of a "long night" might be expressed differently across regions. It doesn't mean that the Westerosi expression-- involving Others and cold-- is the "true" one, or source of an all-consuming Long Night. It might simply be the expression of what a great darkness or "Long Night" manifests as in Westeros.

Ok. Fair points. But with the Others being part of the question, I feel it is reasonable to consider the possibility that the answer encompasses both long nights AND winters. Winter clearly exists without the presence of the Others, but the only Long Night that we know of from the series text was caused by the Others' presence, so far as we know. If the question pertains to both, the answer can reasonably be assumed to pertain to both as well.

We know that the Others bring the cold, and the Long Night. We have no examples in the text of Others showing up in massive numbers and NOT causing a long night. If it turns out the Long Night and the Others coming at the same time is just a coincidence, and that the source of the problem is not in Westeros, I'll be happy to admit I was mistaken. Ok, not happy, but you know what I mean.

This really turned into one heck of a debate while I was asleep!

[MoIaF]

If anything does support the claim that Westeros was the source of the Long Winter/Night, I would say it was Bran's coma dream of the Land of Always Winter, and beyond. I've always argued that the combined effects of the Others' Ice Magic and the Valyrians' Fire Magic (which were probably contemporaneous) was the root cause of the LW/LN and the wonky seasons.

But the Valyrians' fire magic died hundreds of years ago but the seasons are still out of whack. Which might mean that the presence of the Others or whatever lies at the Heart of Winter is still messing and causing imbalance in the planetos.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'd say that this is sort of self-evident. If the Others and the second War for the Dawn are going to be a major theme, it would make little sense from a story-telling POV to not make the Others and the cause of the Long Night and the freak seasons heavily interconnected.

Actually that could work. We know Others bring the cold. We know they only show up when it's dark. If something else causes the darkness, the Others will still come and bring the cold. But per the possible parameters of the question and the answer, the Others may affect other countries as well, Westeros just takes the worst because of their location/proximity to the problem/winter/Others.

The hinges of the world should be connected somehow.

Can anyone link to the SSM that deals with whether or not we will get to see Asshai? I'm thinking he said only in memories, but I might be mixing Asshai up with Valyria. If we get a POV that is actually in Asshai, the split between the source of the darkness and the source of the cold will be far more likely. If "the darkness" gathers in and comes from Asshai, then the darkness will have to be defeated and that might take care of the Others.

I've been thinking that flying a dragon into the Heart of Winter might solve all the problems, but it may not be that simple.

ETA: that still doesn't explain what Mel is doing in Westeros. If she knows about the darkness problem (and it is indeed separate), why does she think it has to be defeated in Westeros when none of her colleagues seem to think that? Does she have special knowledge? Is she terribly wrong? Is she of Westerosi origin or ancestry and knows the old stories? Has Old Nan been teleporting around the world again?

[Hrafntýr]

If anything does support the claim that Westeros was the source of the Long Winter/Night, I would say it was Bran's coma dream of the Land of Always Winter, and beyond. I've always argued that the combined effects of the Others' Ice Magic and the Valyrians' Fire Magic (which were probably contemporaneous) was the root cause of the LW/LN and the wonky seasons.

Though it would seem that TWoIaF now makes the Valyrians rather latercomers, if they learned their "fire magic" from Asshai. I agree that Bran's coma dream is highly significant here, but I think the new book gently directs us to remember that Asshai is linked to dragons in Bran's dream. But you're quite right that Bran's dream does suggest that the Heart of Winter is the ultimate focus, as he turns his gaze in that direction after he sees the dragons in Asshai. But I'll also confess that I've never been entirely convinced that the Heart of Winter is an actual, physical location that you could get to by walking/riding.

@Lady Blizzardborn: We don't know, though, that the Others bring the cold. In fact, our chief informants always demur on this point: do the Others come when it's cold, or does it become cold when the Others come? I lean toward the latter, but it is interesting that it's always raised as a question.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, the Long Night clearly was about to become a winter without end - if the War for the Dawn had not been won. Or sort of won. The Others retreated, but the seasons did not change back to normal. And the Others are still there. The idea that only the cold and the dark allows the Others to come (and not the other way around) does not sit all that right with me, since there is no major cataclysm causing a major winter/darkness in AGoT. They do show up again in summer, and it still grows terribly cold when they come...

It seems to be kind of evident that the seasons are freakish because both fire and ice magic are existing in the world, and we also know that rumor goes that with the death of the last dragon winter in Westeros has grown steadily worse.

Considering the fact that the seasons were normal before the Long Night, my guess is the magical cause for the Long Night is also the very thing that created the Others, and that they, using their magics, tried to impose a climate on the earth in which they could live in (or to eradicate all human life because they originally go back to a species or tribe of Children who did not meekly accept the fate they faced.

The fact that present day Others may also use young humans to full up their ranks (as Craster's wives seem to believe) does not necessarily mean that the first Others were humans, too.

Asshai is out of the books unless GRRM has not changed his opinion on that again. Dany is now much more mobile. She is a dragonrider.

[Mithras]

The tales told about the North of the Shivering Sea clearly talk about the Others and the Wights. It looks like the Others always lived in the far North and are still living. However, they did something to bring a terrible cold accompanied with darkness and that is how they invaded the South. They must be doing that thing again during the series.

[Mithras]

It is also erroneus to reduce everything to fire and ice magic because there are many other schools of magic such as blood magic, water magic, air magic, perhaps earth magic etc.

[Hrafntýr]

Actually, the Long Night clearly was about to become a winter without end - if the War for the Dawn had not been won. Or sort of won. The Others retreated, but the seasons did not change back to normal. And the Others are still there. The idea that only the cold and the dark allows the Others to come (and not the other way around) does not sit all that right with me, since there is no major cataclysm causing a major winter/darkness in AGoT. They do show up again in summer, and it still grows terribly cold when they come...

It seems to be kind of evident that the seasons are freakish because both fire and ice magic are existing in the world, and we also know that rumor goes that with the death of the last dragon winter in Westeros has grown steadily worse.

Considering the fact that the seasons were normal before the Long Night, my guess is the magical cause for the Long Night is also the very thing that created the Others, and that they, using their magics, tried to impose a climate on the earth in which they could live in (or to eradicate all human life because they originally go back to a species or tribe of Children who did not meekly accept the fate they faced.

The fact that present day Others may also use young humans to full up their ranks (as Craster's wives seem to believe) does not necessarily mean that the first Others were humans, too.

Asshai is out of the books unless GRRM has not changed his opinion on that again. Dany is now much more mobile. She is a dragonrider.

But in some way there's the question: "created the Others" in what sense? In a sense that the Others "evolved naturally" or were a sort of spontaneous mutation caused by the Long Night, or were they created by some agents, the same agents responsible for the Long Night? I've long wondered if the Others are free agents or in service to someone else.

Didn't GRRM say that we might see Asshai of the past, not of the present? Which would kind of make sense, if the origins of dragons are there, and possibly even the darkness/night, in the sense that maybe that's the sort of "ground zero" for whatever magical event kicked the weird seasonal phenomena into action.

[Lord Varys]

Of course. But those schools of magic don't seem to interfere with the seasons all that much.

And I did not say that fire and ice magics mess with the seasons, only that ice magic/the Others clearly did and still do.

And whether the freak stories about the White Waste are connected to the Others remains to be seen - however, we don't have sources on the White Waste prior to the Long Night, so it makes no sense to assume they have been always there. We don't know if the Others existed prior to the Long Night.

GRRM said we might see Asshai in memory (i.e. from Mel's POV). Not it's past. But he has alluded that Bran may be able to investigate the past of Valyria in his visions (which could occur during his investigations of the Long Night - that is, if survivors/fighters in the War for the Dawn were amongst the first founders of Valyria).

[butterbumps!]

I'd say that this is sort of self-evident. If the Others and the second War for the Dawn are going to be a major theme, it would make little sense from a story-telling POV to not make the Others and the cause of the Long Night and the freak seasons heavily interconnected.

It is not self-evident that the Westerosi wintry Long Night was the root cause of all the Long Nights around the world.

Westeros is the focus of ASOIAF. That it's the focus does not mean that it literally caused the worldwide Long Nights. Something else may have brought this condition, and Martin could be simply showing us how the Westerosi deal with it.

If anything does support the claim that Westeros was the source of the Long Winter/Night, I would say it was Bran's coma dream of the Land of Always Winter, and beyond. I've always argued that the combined effects of the Others' Ice Magic and the Valyrians' Fire Magic (which were probably contemporaneous) was the root cause of the LW/LN and the wonky seasons.

I agree that that's a better argument, though the vision of dragons waking in Asshai preceding that (and potentially all else in the vision coming prior) might locate what's going on in the Heart of Winter as a product, not necessarily the cause. Or even merely just the particular battlefield from which Bran must fight.

Ok. Fair points. But with the Others being part of the question, I feel it is reasonable to consider the possibility that the answer encompasses both long nights AND winters. Winter clearly exists without the presence of the Others, but the only Long Night that we know of from the series text was caused by the Others' presence, so far as we know. If the question pertains to both, the answer can reasonably be assumed to pertain to both as well.

We know that the Others bring the cold, and the Long Night. We have no examples in the text of Others showing up in massive numbers and NOT causing a long night. If it turns out the Long Night and the Others coming at the same time is just a coincidence, and that the source of the problem is not in Westeros, I'll be happy to admit I was mistaken. Ok, not happy, but you know what I mean.

This really turned into one heck of a debate while I was asleep!

I might need to phrase this another way.

I'm not arguing against the idea of the world wide Long Night's being caused by the Others.

I'm specifically arguing against using this SSM as "confirmation" that the worldwide Long Night was caused by the Westerosi Others, and that the Long Night was not as intense in other locations.

We do not even "know" whether the Others are responsible for causing years-long winters. We do not know that they only came once. (Old Nan in particular states that "The Others came for the first time" during the LN, which might imply that they came other times too).

I'm not taking issue with your actual argument, but rather, in what we can take as confirmed in terms of that SSM.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

But the Valyrians' fire magic died hundreds of years ago but the seasons are still out of whack. Which might mean that the presence of the Others or whatever lies at the Heart of Winter is still messing and causing imbalance in the planetos.

The Vayrians' fire magic didn't necessarily die at the Doom. I've always figured that it's still raging uncontrolled around Valyria. That's why it's still dangerous to travel there. That's what Tyrion sees reflected from the clouds as his ship passes nearby. Maybe. Perhaps. I actually think it's a likely explanation.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

It is also erroneus to reduce everything to fire and ice magic because there are many other schools of magic such as blood magic, water magic, air magic, perhaps earth magic etc.

Of course there are other types of magic other than Ice and Fire, but those two types seem to at the heart of the planet's main problem. Valyria might have learned how to use Fire magic from Asshai, but the Valyrians abused and over exploited it to build an empire. (Asshai apparently never did that. Perhaps they knew enough to stay within proper limits with their magic use.) Likewise, the Others may have over exploited Ice magic in their attempt to conquer Westeros.

The CotF claim to be Earth Singers, but we don't see them abusing Earth magic for their own selfish purposes. Ditto for stormsingers, aeromancers, etc... .

[RumHam]

The CotF claim to be Earth Singers, but we don't see them abusing Earth magic for their own selfish purposes. Ditto for stormsingers, aeromancers, etc... .

Well they did break the Arm of Drone. Probably drowned thousands to save their own skins. There were at war though.

[Lord Varys]

I'd say fire magic never died, but it could only reach pinnacles of unlimited power at such hubs like Valyria, close to the Fourteen Flames. When Valyria and the dragons mostly died, this also had an impact on other fire magics, but they did never completely die.

Ice magic, presumably, works also best in region that is already cold.

[AdmiralKyrd]

K here goes...

The Others are probably messing with the sun - trying to cast a spell to get it to shut down again like it did during the Long Night. (Emphasis on the literal meaning of the phrase "long night"). How do you get a long night? You shut off, block, or dim the sun. The Night's King is king of the night. The Night's Watch watches for the night. When the Others actually come, it sounds like there is a real emphasize on perpetual darkness in the names and orders. This emphasis in the stories has been kind of lost as the oral histories only really speak of the winter and the cold, yet all the talk of a night and darkness is still paramount in the names and orders.

A husk of a sun begets cold. The Others haven't been able to get it shut down again for thousands of years because their original spell was broken by the Last Ahai in "The Battle for the Dawn." However, they've been stockpiling magic or something and with the War of the Five Kings and the return of dragons, they finally have enough bloodmagic to husk it down again. This would explain two things:

1. Why the major threat to the world is in the Land of Always Winter - because its the source of the sun's demise (Others and their spells)

2. Why the whole world would feel the effects - without a sun that burns, the whole world freezes in the cold - everywhere.

This would explain why the red priests are adamant about finding their hero, because they're all going to freak out when their god of light and fire goes dark and cold. This would also seem to emphasize that Lightbringer is actually just that, something that breaks the spell and "brings light" back to the world. And what is Lightbringer? With all the sword legends, lightbringer is probably a sword, and likely "Dawn" held by The Sword of the Morning, an ancient order descended from the Last Ahai. The sword is called Dawn and the wielders position as the Sword of the Morning because its office is to defeat the others, end the long night, and return light to the world with the dawn/morning.

The long night isn't so much about the cold and winter - its about the darkness.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

@Lady Blizzardborn: We don't know, though, that the Others bring the cold. In fact, our chief informants always demur on this point: do the Others come when it's cold, or does it become cold when the Others come? I lean toward the latter, but it is interesting that it's always raised as a question.

I'll have to reread the prologue and the Sam chapters but I'm pretty sure it gets way colder when the Others are around.

<snip

I'm not taking issue with your actual argument, but rather, in what we can take as confirmed in terms of that SSM.

Yes. I understand that. I misspoke (mistyped?) based on what I feel the SSM means, rather than on what it actually says. Knowing GRRM he could have been answering about one thing but not the other. He is a tricksy authorses. :D

[Lord Varys]

The Others bring the cold with them when they come. This is made very clear (or at least sort of) in the Prologue of AGoT. It is still summer, the Wall weeps, and people don't freeze to death.

Conclusion: The cold Will, Gared, and Ser Waymar experienced is unnatural. More importantly, the idea that the Others are sort of restricted in their movements to a sort 'magical cold hub' which moves around randomly and controls where they can go and where they can't go (in summer) would greatly hamper the capability to make plans or (re)act rationally. That's clearly not the case.

Waymar's group was targeted intentionally, just as the Others knew what they were doing when they placed wights near the weirwood grove, or when they annihilated the Black Brothers at the Fist.

[cgf]

I'd say that this is sort of self-evident. If the Others and the second War for the Dawn are going to be a major theme, it would make little sense from a story-telling POV to not make the Others and the cause of the Long Night and the freak seasons heavily interconnected.

This just doesn't make sense to me. What's wrong with just getting the westerosi iteration of the long night? Westeros seems the lands that shares its culture the most with the real-life english speaking world Martin writes for, so focusing on their struggles with this world changing event makes sense from a story-telling POV whether their Long Night is the cause of the global long night or just another manifestation of it that may not even be the most dangerous.