[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

That quote is tricky. Note that the questioner doesn't refer to "the Long Night," but rather the long winters and Others. It tells us that other parts experience cold too, but that the extreme winter conditions impact Westeros most strongly. Which makes sense, as the landmass of Westeros extends into what appears to be an arctic region.

The character of a "long night" might be expressed differently across regions. It doesn't mean that the Westerosi expression-- involving Others and cold-- is the "true" one, or source of an all-consuming Long Night. It might simply be the expression of what a great darkness or "Long Night" manifests as in Westeros.

Oh come on, this is just splitting hairs for the sake of continuing the argument. The long winter with the Others is the "Long Night".

[cgf]

In westeros that's what it is. But why shouldn't the long night take a different form in the east?

[butterbumps!]

Oh come on, this is just splitting hairs for the sake of continuing the argument. The long winter with the Others is the "Long Night".

I'm sorry, but are you kidding?

That quote tells us that the condition of extreme winter impacts Westeros most strongly. It's not asking about a Long Night. It does not tell us if the impact of a Long Night was less egregious in other parts of the world, only that the specific wintry permutation that expresses in Westeros was most egregious in Westeros.

I will also point out that the quote asks about the long winterS. Plural. As in, the condition of extensive cold fronts we see in Westeros. Which Martin attributes to fact that it extends further into arctic territory than anywhere in Essos.

Nothing is answered here about the intensity of what THE Long Night (assuming there is one simultaneous one across the world) looks like in other parts of the world except to say they don't get winter as extremely as in the landmass that actually extends into the arctic.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

This was a casual exchange at a convention, and I'm pretty sure what we're reading isn't a transcript but a paraphrase of the exchange. You try to extract from it the spirit of what is being conveyed, not parse the exactly usage of words and tenses and what an extra "s" here or a missing "the" there means.

It's pretty clear what he's trying to say. Even if you refuse to concede the point.

[butterbumps!]

This was a casual exchange at a convention, and I'm pretty sure what we're reading isn't a transcript but a paraphrase of the exchange. You try to extract from it the spirit of what is being conveyed, not parse the exactly usage of words and tenses and what an extra "s" here or a missing "the" there means.

It's pretty clear what he's trying to say. Even if you refuse to concede the point.

uh, there is nothing here to concede.

Do you honestly think this exchange:

xaosx Mr Martin, why does Westeros seem the only place effected by the Others and the long winters? The other parts of the world seem not to care.

George_RR_Martin Westeros is not the only place affected, but it's affected most strongly, because it's the only landmass that extends that far north. The other continent is bounded to the north by an icy polar sea.

says what the poster I disagreed with claimed it said?

We know from an early SSM that the Long Night affected the whole world, but Westeros got the brunt of it because they were closest to the source of the problem.

There is nothing about Westeros being the source and nexus of the worldwide Long Night problem being stated in that SSM.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

uh, there is nothing here to concede.

Do you honestly think this exchange:

says what the poster I disagreed with claimed it said?

There is nothing about Westeros being the source and nexus of the worldwide Long Night problem being stated in that SSM.

Yes there is, the question wasn't just about the long winters, it was also about the Others, who was last seen during *The Long Night*. Clearly the intent of the question combining the Others with long winters is about the longest winter of all when the Other came, also known as, yes, *The Long Night*. So the answer given was also about, say it with me, *The Long Night*.

[David C. Hunter]

Yea, that's my position, too. But I often find myself debating against the position that "Azor Ahai" = "one true hero" on here.

There probably wasn't a "good" side to any of these. What's "good" is entirely dependent on one's perspective. Some kind of fire power allegedly brought down the darkness of this Bloodstone guy's slavery racket, and fire power went on to be come the world's largest slaving racket. It seems evident that it's not inherently "good."

We know a ton of people have magical abilities in these books. And we know their history is basically an endless power struggle between competing kings, conquests, slavery and so forth. And we know for certain that magic was used by people in some of these cases of political struggle, and legends make appeals to magical involvement in others more ancient in history.

Point being, I tend to think no magical side is inherently the "good" one. I really kind of think it's all fundamentally about political conflicts, and using whatever resource (magical or otherwise) available to you in those enterprises.

Im with you on this, and it seems very cyclical in nature. Humans using magic for power, but it's almost as if each side has a turn. Meaning...if Fire and Ice are the two main interpretations of magic (Both created via blood magic/binding evidently) then if we interepret the stories, legends and historical accounts, one could surmise that each side ruled during an era. It was constantly shifting, constantly moving, but it was predominantly in the favor of Fire or Ice aka Light or Darkness.

We can interpret the Valyrians Domination of the World as an era in which Fire was in control. It lasted thousands of years until the Doom. Afterwards, chaos broke out, many different sides fighting for power and overall the Song of Fire was dim.it wasn't until a Champion/Conqueror, Aegon, appeared and conquered Westeros was the power of Fire restored somewhat. It was Aegon who fought back the Darkness. (Sound familiar)

But Aegon and his people did not know how to work Valyrian Steel. They didnt know how to replicate the architecture of Valyria....soon afterwards they didnt even know how to hatch Dragon Eggs. They fought each other, the Dragons died and their line ended, as it always was going to. The writing was on the wall ever since the Doom. In a way, the era of fire was over and here cometh the Long Night, once again.

Once again as the magic of the world shifts from Fire to Ice, the world is covered in chaos, and the Fire side musters up one last army to fight against the coming age (I dont think they will win).

So, I surmise...what was the Long Night? I believe the Long Night was indeed a Long Winter, for sure, and it was a darkness that covered the world. But I do not this era lasted a few years or a generation. I believe it lasted an entire age...hundreds of years...maybe even thousands. Maybe Similair in length to the era of the Valyrian Freehold. Now do I believe this era was all Winter SNow? Of course not, but I believe it was an era in which the Winters were long and harsh and it was also an era in which those of the Ice/Darkness magic were dominant. Maybe it was ruled by those ancient people who taught the Valyrians how to fly. (Maybe those are the ancestors of the Asshai). Maybe the White Walkers and COTF roaming free all over Planetos during the Long Night was equivalent to the Fire Age where Dragons romaed all over Planetos. And just like the Valyrians were Dragon riders/tamers, maybe there were a group of men (besides the Children) who could tame the White Walkers. Hell, Northern Magic is home to the skinchangers, Wargs and Greenseers.

And the Starks were called Kings of Winter...maybe they were the equivalent of the Valyrians during the Long Night. Maybe they went bya different name. Maybe Winterfell is much older than we think. Who knows?

But I believe there is a lot of Merit to believe things like this.

[AdmiralKyrd]

Is it written anywhere that humans were definitely spread throughout the world at the time of the Long Night? It sounds like all these stories come from the time of the "First Men," as in the actual first men living anywhere in a proto-civilization around Westeros/Rhoyne. Asshai, Yi-Ti, and the like were possibly all settled later, bringing the ancestral tales of the Long Night with them and adapting them to fit their new environments and cultures. The Tale of Hyrkoon itself ends with the world being broken after the Long Night and every tribe going its own way. The tales of the Five Forts north of Yi-Ti might even be just a lingering remnant in their tales of the Wall.

This migration of tales is what happened with Noah. It's not like there were multiple dudes with a boat and a flood in both the Americas and the Biblical Crescent.

[butterbumps!]

Yes there is, the question wasn't just about the long winters, it was also about the Others, who was last seen during *The Long Night*. Clearly the intent of the question combining the Others with long winters is about the longest winter of all when the Other came, also known as, yes, *The Long Night*. So the answer given was also about, say it with me, *The Long Night*.

The question as written does not ask about the Long Night. Perhaps the questioner assumes that "long winters and Others" = THE Long Night experienced world wide, but that's not what appears was actually asked.

The point being, this SSM cannot be used to say that Martin confirmed that Westeros is the source of the "Long Night" or "great darknesses" all these cultures speak of.

I have no idea why you are being so condescending about this.

[Lord Varys]

It clearly mentions that the Long Night is caused by something in the North, though. If it were meteorite impact, or some devastating volcanic eruption (which, apparently, do no lasting harm to Martinworld climate since then the fallout of the Doom of Valyria would have been mentioned - we know what the Krakatoa eruption did to world climate today, and the other destruction of the peninsula of Valyria in one huge eruption would have, well, killed world climate for quite some time in a world like ours) then the whole world would have been affected roughly in the same way, depending on where the meteor struck or the volcano erupted.

There would be no reason to assume that it was worse in the north in general, or the North of Westeros.

[butterbumps!]

It clearly mentions that the Long Night is caused by something in the North, though. If it were meteorite impact, or some devastating volcanic eruption (which, apparently, do no lasting harm to Martinworld climate since then the fallout of the Doom of Valyria would have been mentioned - we know what the Krakatoa eruption did to world climate today, and the other destruction of the peninsula of Valyria in one huge eruption would have, well, killed world climate for quite some time in a world like ours) then the whole world would have been affected roughly in the same way, depending on where the meteor struck or the volcano erupted.

There would be no reason to assume that it was worse in the north in general, or the North of Westeros.

What does? That SSM? That SSM points to the Westerosi experience of their form of Long Night-- Others and long winters-- as being somewhat singular to Westeros.

It does not tell us that the experience of the Long Nights or great darknesses other regions have involve Westeros as its source, nor whether they experienced a less intense "darkness" than Westeros (but it tells us that their times of darkness did not really involve the form of Winter Westeros did).

[Mithras]

I think beyond Mussovy, we converge to the Land of Always Winter through land and ice because the world is round. That is how the Others should have invaded Essos during the Long Night.

Val is very much like a moonsinger. What might be the connection?

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to believe there were multiple Long Nights or something like that. The fact that's alluded to in the book that the seasons were once not freakish sort of proves that.

Martinworld is supposed to be somewhat bigger than the earth, thus it is very unlikely that Essos eventually becomes the Land of Always Winter. People would have found the west coast of Essos then long ago.

[butterbumps!]

There is no reason to believe there were multiple Long Nights or something like that. The fact that's alluded to in the book that the seasons were once not freakish sort of proves that.

I don't necessarily believe that there was more than one Long Night. But from what we have in the WB, either option (one simultaneously affecting the world, or several at different time affecting different regions) can be supported.

The main issue I was taking was with the idea that that SSM somehow confirms that the Long Night experienced across the world had as its source Westeros, and as such, that the Long Night hadn't much affected the rest of the planet.

[AdmiralKyrd]

If Planetos has the same climatological wind cells and axial tilt that Earth has then the whole world look more like this. You have to fit the cold regions / ice caps all the way down to the equator onto a sphere, meaning, the whole Westeros -> Essos -> Westeros thing just will never work. It's way too far when you place the available map on a sphere that would represent the climates of the world.

[Lord Varys]

I'd assume that this was the case, though, since we have

- the Valyrian prophecy that the Doom of Mankind comes from Westeros

- the Yi Tish numbers on the years do not suggest a wild discrepancy between the Long Night in Westeros (more likely 6,000 than 8,000 years ago) and the Yi Tish Long Night (you can get preliminary numbers by messing around with the dynasty reigns)

- the fact that freak seasons prevail everywhere, not just in Westeros, and it is believed that this was not the case prior to the Long Night

- not to mention George's own statements that the freak seasons have not been caused naturally, but magically

[naseridrl]

I've always wondered if the long night and the winter that came were two different things. The Long Night perhaps allowed the Others to come and bring the crazy winter, which might be why Westeros got the winter and everyone else just felt the long night. Maybe the Others latched onto the supernatural going on during the Long Night, and used it to boost their power and bring winter to a many places as they could to try and take over. It might be cyclical, the Long Summer comes and fire finds it easier to dominate and then when the Long Night comes Ice finds it easier to dominate. So maybe when the Long Night came to its natural end the Others were easier to push back with help from COTF.

Maybe its a natural magical ebb and flow that creates the Long Night and Long Summer and factions who practice the magic that agrees with the current ''season'' take power at that time.

[Mithras]

I don't think the weird seasons have anything to do with planetary motion. George said the reason is magical. In the Asshai where it should be very hot being so South, the weather is ... f***d up (for lack of a better word).

[Hrafntýr]

I've always wondered if the long night and the winter that came were two different things. The Long Night perhaps allowed the Others to come and bring the crazy winter, which might be why Westeros got the winter and everyone else just felt the long night. Maybe the Others latched onto the supernatural going on during the Long Night, and used it to boost their power and bring winter to a many places as they could to try and take over. It might be cyclical, the Long Summer comes and fire finds it easier to dominate and then when the Long Night comes Ice finds it easier to dominate. So maybe when the Long Night came to its natural end the Others were easier to push back with help from COTF.

It seems possible at the least. And given the general creepiness and persistence of the darkness/shadows around Asshai, there seems no reason not to speculate that Asshai could be a source of "night," which the Others then opportunistically use to their advantage.

[butterbumps!]

I'd assume that this was the case, though, since we have

- the Valyrian prophecy that the Doom of Mankind comes from Westeros

- the Yi Tish numbers on the years do not suggest a wild discrepancy between the Long Night in Westeros (more likely 6,000 than 8,000 years ago) and the Yi Tish Long Night (you can get preliminary numbers by messing around with the dynasty reigns)

- the fact that freak seasons prevail everywhere, not just in Westeros, and it is believed that this was not the case prior to the Long Night

- not to mention George's own statements that the freak seasons have not been caused naturally, but magically

Some of these reasons add up to an argument in favor of there having been a singular world-wide Long Night.

But none of this adds up to an argument for Westeros being the source of that LN.

It seems possible at the least. And given the general creepiness and persistence of the darkness/shadows around Asshai, there seems no reason not to speculate that Asshai could be a source of "night," which the Others then opportunistically use to their advantage.

Exactly.