[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[butterbumps!]

Yea, the 5 Forts don't seem to relate to Asshai. They sit far to the north of the long mountain rage above Asshai, where it wouldn't make apparent sense as a defense against Asshai. I'm leaning more toward the idea that it might be a mechanism against old gods-related business or something.

And it does kind of seem like Asshai might have been a major civilization at one point, and subsequently erased-- the architecture and urban scale seems ludicrous if this wasn't the case. And as a side point, I wonder how much of the darkness is just a "natural" condition of this region. Extreme heat seemed to be Valyria's "nature," but after the Doom it took on a seemingly toxic character. Same with the Sorrows-- it was already watery, but after destruction, there's toxicity there.

I'm curious whether the source of Asshai magic was about tapping into a "natural" condition of darkness-- the way fire would be in volcanic Valyria, ice would be in the far North, or water in the Sorrows--- and if we're looking at a toxic byproduct in Asshai's remains. As in, there was always darkness and this darkness was their strength, but that the unwholesome toxicity of this darkness in its current state is a result of some cataclysmic event.

If darkness (like shadowbinding) was their strength, then their dragons might not be the same as the Valyrian ones. Like shadow-made-flesh rather than fire or something.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Therefore I think that we can rule out multiple heroes travelling from the ends of the earth to Westeros to sort out the Others and bring light back into the world. Rather that each culture had its own local hero - and that includes Meddlesome Mel's Azor Ahai.

Ok. Makes sense but...why does Mel think that Azor Ahai was/will be reborn in Westeros, to fight the Others? If the legend only applies to Asshai because Azor Ahai saved his hometown, why change the location for his next hurrah? Is it because Mel herself was Westerosi at one point? Or is it because Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, the Last Hero, and others all worked together to battle the Long Night in Westeros?

[butterbumps!]

Ok. Makes sense but...why does Mel think that Azor Ahai was/will be reborn in Westeros, to fight the Others? If the legend only applies to Asshai because Azor Ahai saved his hometown, why change the location for his next hurrah? Is it because Mel herself was Westerosi at one point? Or is it because Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, the Last Hero, and others all worked together to battle the Long Night in Westeros?

She doesn't. Or at least hadn't initially. She has the prophesy of "born amidst smoke and salt, bleeding star, wake dragons from stone," and based on her knowledge, thought Dragonstone was the referent. She doesn't connect AA's fight against darkness to the Others until that vision of the Fist of the First Men Stannis has-- she later tells Jon that his war (against the Others) may be the same one her hero is supposed to fight.

No one else who names AA as a hero has connected his darkness to the ice Others. And the eastern accounts of the LN have more to do with "darkness" than cold-- in fact, coldness doesn't seem to be a thing in these accounts, with the exception of the Rhoyne's freezing in places. The Westeros LN is about extreme cold, and not really blackout darkness. By contrast, Asshai seems to lack cold, and their darkness absorbs all light (apparently).

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that Mel knows somehow about the prophecy the Targaryens have access to - either through a book, or because she herself is Westerosi and steeped in those things (could be that her mother, possibly Shiera Seastar, told her) - but as a Red Priestess she sees and interprets everything with R'hllor glasses, meaning the promised prince (or any prophesied savior) has to be Azor Ahai, the one her faith has incorporated in its traditions and teachings.

But this does not mean that the prophecy of the promised prince actually mentions the name 'Azor Ahai', 'Hyrkoon the Hero' or anything else of that sort.

Mel is clearly also mistaken about the purpose of the new Hero. She does not suggest that Stannis go to the Wall, she considers him a champion against the abstract dark, pretty much the same way Benerro does. And she still only can perceive the Others as creatures and tools of the Great Other rather than as an independent faction with completely different motives and a completely different origin.

[butterbumps!]

I think whether Asshai was always shadow-oriented might be crucial in this AA business. If they were using shadow the way the Valyrians use fire, you'd think a warrior of fire would be their villain rather than champion. Do the Asshai themselves see these permutations of fire champions as heroes? The Edric Shadowchaser guy in particular sounds like someone they might not like very much.

[Lord Varys]

We can say that present day Asshai'i don't have dragons of any sort. The dragons in the Shadow on the way up to Stygai are just a reminiscence of the belief that there are still dragons in the Shadowlands.

If the weirdness of Asshai was not caused by the ancient Asshai'i dragonriders, then it could possibly be that centuries of shadowbinding sort of hurt and destroy the environment and/or reality itself in a certain region. The book finally confirmed that shadowbinding is the predominant (but not the only) magical school in Asshai.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Valyria losing control of the fourteen flames seems to be what caused the Doom, the ancient Asshai may have lost control of their "shadow magic" and that caused the Long Night in the East?

If darkness (like shadowbinding) was their strength, then their dragons might not be the same as the Valyrian ones. Like shadow-made-flesh rather than fire or something.

Reminds me of "a stone beast breathing shadow fire".

[butterbumps!]

Valyria losing control of the fourteen flames seems to be what caused the Doom, the ancient Asshai may have lost control of their "shadow magic" and that caused the Long Night in the East?

Reminds me of "a stone beast breathing shadow fire".

I thought the same, lol.

But you know, it's kind of funny to me that the Yi Ti Bloodstone Emperor kills his sister to gain power, and he's the devil who causes "the darkness." So, here kinslayer => bad.

But Azor Ahai, who kills his wife to gain a WMD, is the story's hero who brings light back into the world. Here, "kinslaying" => good.

I'm really kind of thinking this might be one of those eyes of the beholder thing, lol.

[Mithras]

Much of Essos lies south than Westeros. The point up to which Rhoyne was frozen is almost at the same lattitude with the Dornish Marches.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Hmm...

Looking at the names of the various heroes from a linguistics point of view, it appears that Azor Ahai is a Sarnori name. It fits with the other two sarnori names that we are given: Huzhor Amai and Mazor Alexi.

The YiTish hero can't be other than Yin Tar, given its chinese inspiration and the likeness with the names of the emperors - Har Loi, Choq Choq, Mengo Quen, Lo Tho, Lo Doq, Jar Har, Chai Duq etc.

Hyrkoon the Hero obviously originates from the legends of the Patrimony of Hyrkoon and Neferion has a touch of Valyrian.

What is really strange is Eldric Shadowchaser. Nevermind the nickname as it can be translation from whatever language, but Eldric? In the annals of the Far East? That is, for me, the biggest curiosity in this tale.

On a different note, I liked the reference of the river Styx, one of the entrances of the underworld in greek mythology (Stygai is the plural of Styx, although Stygae would be a more elegant and fitting spelling IMO). The city itself looks very much like suffering the curse of Lower Uncton :)

I think it very unlikely to extract any useful info from the Assai tales though - what is of "Shadowbaby" reliability and what is of "turned into wolf with bat leather wings" reliaility is almost totally indistinguishable for such distant and unknown places. I think that tales of both kind are included in the narration, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt but not completely dismiss it either.

[Free Northman Reborn]

We can say that present day Asshai'i don't have dragons of any sort. The dragons in the Shadow on the way up to Stygai are just a reminiscence of the belief that there are still dragons in the Shadowlands.

And yet Bran saw dragons stirring in Ashai, back in Book 1.

[Lord Varys]

I know. That's why that tidbit was in there, too.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I know. That's why that tidbit was in there, too.

Sorry, I'm not with you. Which tidbit? The stone dragons? Are they statues? If so, how can they be the dragons that Bran sees stirring in Ashai?

[Lord Varys]

I meant the mentioning of the dragons in the Shadowlands where the Ash is flowing. They are mentioned in the book.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I meant the mentioning of the dragons in the Shadowlands where the Ash is flowing. They are mentioned in the book.

Oh I get you. You are distinguishing between Ashai'i itself (which is a city if I understand it correctly), and the Shadowlands, which is a separate territory further inland, but right next to it. I still kind of conflate the two as the same place in my mind. "Ashai by the Shadow".

[cgf]

In the Vale, however, the deeds of this real historical personage have become utterly confused with those of his legendary namesake, another Artys Arryn, who lived many thousands of years earlier during the Age of Heroes, and is remembered in song and story as the Winged Knight.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

A hundred other tales are told of him, most of them just as fanciful. It is highly unlikely that such a man ever existed; like Lann the Clever in the westerlands, and Brandon the Builder in the North, the Winged Knight is made of legend , not of flesh and blood . If such a hero ever walked the Mountains and Vale, far back in the dim mists of the Dawn Age, his name was certainly not Artys Arryn, for the Arryns came from pure Andal stock, and this Winged Knight lived and flew and fought many thousands of years before the first Andals came to Westeros.

Like as not, it was the singers of the Vale who conflated these two figures, attributing the deeds of the legendary Winged Knight to the historic Falcon Knight, perhaps in order to curry favor with the real Artys Arryn’s successors by placing this great hero of the First Men amongst their forebears.

Martin, George R.R.; Garcia, Elio; Antonsson, Linda (2014-10-28). The World of Ice & Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 4787-4798). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The deeds attributed to the first Ser Artys Arryn belong to the anonymous Last Hero (Brandon the Builder or his father). It is another example of importing distant heroic deeds to a founding hero that came thousands of years later.

That could well be an iteration of the LH legend, but it makes more sense to me for the ruling houses to have actually inter-married with a powerful member of the native populations upon conquest to forge a peace as we are told nymeria did upon landing in dorne, or the targs did upon conquering dorne, or dany's done in meeren. So each major family's founding myths having to do with intermarriage with the magical, native population, like the descendents of Garth the Gardener who founded so many great houses, makes sense and would explain their long rule.

[Mithras]

They obviously learned the LH legend from the local First Men with whom they certainly formed cultural and blood relations. We also learn tha during the Andal invasions, Theon Stark raided Andalos in Essos. Also some Andals might have voyaged back and forth because they were seafaring people. I think that is how the legend of the LH found its way to Essos.

We also see how some Hoares tried to combine the Faith and the Drowned God. First he proposed that 8 gods exist, which no one liked. Then he proposed that the Drowned God is the Stranger (which was better).

[Mithras]

In TWoW,

Tyrion likens the dragons flying afar to a "big eagle". A hint for legendary Ser Artys Arryn (Winged Knight) being a dragonrider.

[Free Northman Reborn]

In TWoW,

Tyrion likens the dragons flying afar to a "big eagle". A hint for legendary Ser Artys Arryn (Winged Knight) being a dragonrider.

Or more likely, given his alleged marriage to a child of the forest, a dragon warg.

[Mithras]

I have speculated in some threads that the LH and a female CotF married to produce Brandon the Builder. His mother obviously died in childbirth and he was the first dragonrider. BtB and his dragon were called "dragonsteel" by the Andals that came thousands of years later. In far east, the they became Lightbringer; the LH became AA; the female CotF became Nissa Nissa.