[TWOIAF Spoilers] Ranking the Targaryen Kings

[Mithras]

I think it all dates back to Valyrian-Rhoynar conflict.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Dornish patriotism is pretty psychotic. There were willing to endure any form of suffering to avoid conquest by the Targaryens, at the same time as doing things like lopping body parts off captives, throwing people out of towers, showering a man with scorpions, and murdering Daeron and his knights under a peace-banner.

Always commit suicide, rather than let the Dornish take you prisoner.

I cannot see what is psychotic about it. When someone attacks your country in order to enslave you, you fight in anyway that you can.

[Mithras]

Piety and zealotry are exceptional qualities in kings, as pretty much all the theocratic monarchies of our world can testify. In fact, pretty much any kingship is founded on a religious basis, and thus theocratic in some degree.

But I did not say that Baelor was a great king, just that he was not yet necessarily nuts in the Targaryen madness thing sense prior to the viper pit.

I'd him rank among the most powerful Targaryen kings, though. He could do what he wanted, and did so until the day he died. It does not matter that some of those things were utterly ridiculous. Baelor clearly was the head of House Targaryen, and the man in charge of the Realm (and the Faith).

I strictly disagree with this. He was just a puppet of the Faith, which in turn has strong association with the Hightowers just like the Citadel.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I cannot see what is psychotic about it. When someone attacks your country in order to enslave you, you fight in anyway that you can.

The Targaryens weren't looking to enslave the Dornishmen. And how it's not psychotic chop off parts of prisioners and shower them with scorpions? How is that a form of patriotism?

[Lord Varys]

Baelor did whatever the hell he wanted to do. That is a pretty strong sign to me that he was in charge, not somebody else. Surely a lot of saner people who may have wanted to use him as a puppet did not actually approve of him imprisoning his sisters, driving all the whores out of KL, replacing the ravens with doves, etc.

Yes, one High Septon was influential at a time. But he died, and then Baelor ruled the Most Devout, just like anybody else.

Viserys clearly would have prevented a lot of Baelor's madder ideas - if he had had the power. The fact that he did not, obviously means that Baelor could force his court to do whatever the hell he wanted them to do.

[Colonel Green]

I strictly disagree with this. He was just a puppet of the Faith, which in turn has strong association with the Hightowers just like the Citadel.

There's nothing to indicate he was a "puppet of the Faith". The Faith were influential, but every king has influences; Baelor was clearly the driving force behind his reign.

[SeanF]

The Targaryens weren't looking to enslave the Dornishmen. And how it's not psychotic chop off parts of prisioners and shower them with scorpions? How is that a form of patriotism?

I cannot see what is psychotic about it. When someone attacks your country in order to enslave you, you fight in anyway that you can.

Perhaps I should have said fanatical rather than psychotic.

Almost anyone would have bent the knee to the Targaryens, whose rule was pretty mild, rather than endure dragonfire. And, although highborn captives get tortured elsewhere than Dorne, few people have the Dornish enthusiasm for it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The Targaryens weren't looking to enslave the Dornishmen. And how it's not psychotic chop off parts of prisioners and shower them with scorpions? How is that a form of patriotism?

Yes they did. They wanted to take their country and their freedom thus enslave them. When someone attacks your house in order to kill you and your family they should be ready to take what is given.

Perhaps I should have said fanatical rather than psychotic.

Almost anyone would have bent the knee to the Targaryens, whose rule was pretty mild, rather than endure dragonfire. And, although highborn captives get tortured elsewhere than Dorne, few people have the Dornish enthusiasm for it.

Again I don't see how is that bad. As I said before; When someone attacks your house in order to kill you and your family they should be ready to take what is given.

[SeanF]

Yes they did. They wanted to take their country and their freedom thus enslave them. When someone attacks your house in order to kill you and your family they should be ready to take what is given.

Again I don't see how is that bad. As I said before; When someone attacks your house in order to kill you and your family they should be ready to take what is given.

I'm not saying it's bad (refusal to surrender, as opposed to torturing captives). It's just a different outlook from most peoples'

It's similar to the way that the Romans refused to come to terms with Hannibal, despite the fact that, by any conventional measure, they'd lost the war.

[Chaircat Meow]

It's similar to the way that the Romans refused to come to terms with Hannibal, despite the fact that, by any conventional measure, they'd lost the war.

I feel sure Rome would have surrendered if Hannibal did have dragons though.

The extent of Dornish resistance seems very implausible to me.

[Colonel Green]

The extent of Dornish resistance seems very implausible to me.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I previously wondered why Aegon didn't just start torching everything, but per TWOIAF he actually did that. I'm highly skeptical that a populace in a prenationalist age would keep on in the face of something like that (to the extent of continuing to fight even after the feudal lords themselves had surrendered).

[Chaircat Meow]

Yeah, I tend to agree. I previously wondered why Aegon didn't just start torching everything, but per TWOIAF he actually did that. I'm highly skeptical that a populace in a prenationalist age would keep on in the face of something like that (to the extent of continuing to fight even after the feudal lords themselves had surrendered).

I agree 100%.

[SeanF]

Yeah, I tend to agree. I previously wondered why Aegon didn't just start torching everything, but per TWOIAF he actually did that. I'm highly skeptical that a populace in a prenationalist age would keep on in the face of something like that (to the extent of continuing to fight even after the feudal lords themselves had surrendered).

Medieval Scotland is a somewhat similar real-life example. English armies regularly torched towns, villages, and castles, and usually beat the Scots in pitched battle, but had immense difficulty in persuading them to surrender.

[Mr Hodor]

Yeah, I tend to agree. I previously wondered why Aegon didn't just start torching everything, but per TWOIAF he actually did that. I'm highly skeptical that a populace in a prenationalist age would keep on in the face of something like that (to the extent of continuing to fight even after the feudal lords themselves had surrendered).

It has been seen in history, e.g. Scots, Afghans.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm not saying it's bad (refusal to surrender, as opposed to torturing captives). It's just a different outlook from most peoples'

It's similar to the way that the Romans refused to come to terms with Hannibal, despite the fact that, by any conventional measure, they'd lost the war.

I think that the word fanatical is what it makes it bad.

[Chaircat Meow]

Medieval Scotland is a somewhat similar real-life example. English armies regularly torched towns, villages, and castles, and usually beat the Scots in pitched battle, but had immense difficulty in persuading them to surrender.

A medieval army is limited in its ravaging/sieges by logistics and can be harassed/shadowed by the local armed forces without ever getting a battle out of that. Having a dragon or two would enormously reduce those problems. There would be no way of protecting most areas from dragon ravaging. The enemy would always have better intelligence. Most castles could not be counted on at all. No pitched battle could be won.

Even the Englishes could have conquering Scotland in the 13-14th Centuries if they had had dragons.

[Lord Varys]

Another thing proving the charisma and control Baelor had over his court is the fact that he was able to force his government to make peace with the Dornish when pretty much no one there had neither reason nor motivation to do so...

[Mithras]

Another thing proving the charisma and control Baelor had over his court is the fact that he was able to force his government to make peace with the Dornish when pretty much no one there had neither reason nor motivation to do so...

Or those Lords were actually wary of Daeron's war which costed so many lives.

[KingBlackfyre]

Or those Lords were actually wary of Daeron's war which costed so many lives.

Not at all after daerons murder the lords were outraged incredibly ready to destroy dorne aegon even gave over his mistress to be executed because she was dornish. It was baelor that caused peace

[Lord Varys]

Exactly, that's was the history books tell us. And any elite/government body of a nation who meekly asks for peace after the enemy has just murdered your leader/monarch/king during negotiations under a peace banner would have to be thinking and acting pretty much irrationally if you ask me.

Baelor must have had an enormous charisma to go through with his peace idea, although I'm inclined to believe that Prince Viserys was not exactly opposed to the idea of peace in general.

But most of the court wanted to continue the war and avenge Daeron I (who was also a very charismatic guy).