[TWOIAF Spoilers] Ranking the Targaryen Kings

[The hairy bear]

#4 is describing Daeron ll, not the 1st.

Daeron l is missing from your list.

Oups, thanks!

I've fixed it. :)

[Mithras]

There would be tons of historical accounts of Baelor's penance walk. It's not a fabrication.

He surely walked but all of those miraculous events were fabricated IMO, especially the touchy scenes with Aemon in a cage.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

For me the interesting thing is that GRRM tragically kills off or forces the abdication of all the Targaryen Crown Princes/contenders for the Throne who would have been great Kings/Queens.

1. Jacaerys Velaryon.

2. Baelor Breakspear

3. Rhaegar Targaryen

4. Valarr/Matarys Targaryen

5. Duncan Prince of Dragonflies

6. Rhaenys Targaryen -"the Queen who never was".

7. Daemon Targaryen

8. Baelon Targaryen

anyone else care to add to the list? Who would have been a great King than Aegon?

Daemon? All he proved was that he had a militaristic mind and was daring. He was also hotheaded, capricious, cruel and violent. Besides his way of dealing with crimes seemed very Tarly-like. I think he should never go near the IT.

Also I don't recall enough information about Rhaenys to detect queen material in her. All I know is that she looked regal, was fearless and hotheaded (not a good thing for a monarch imo) and knew how to ride a dragon.

[apovsic]

Daemon? All he proved was that he had a militaristic mind and was daring. He was also hotheaded, capricious, cruel and violent. Besides his way of dealing with crimes seemed very Tarly-like. I think he should never go near the IT.

I really don't get where this Deamon love come from. I mean guy has all the traits of horrible king, bu still people make list of best-to-be kings with him on it? E?

And I really hope that he died at Harrenhall that die, that he crashed so hard into the lake that his body penetrate deep into mud, where he deserve to be.

[Colonel Green]

He surely walked but all of those miraculous events were fabricated IMO, especially the touchy scenes with Aemon in a cage.

He spent several months convalescing from poison in the Stormlands before he could even return to the capital. There'd be very clear records of something like that, in the capital, at Storm's End, and probably with the Wyls.

Yandel talks about sources (particularly singers) on many occasions. Concerning the walk and the snake pit, he takes it as fact. That indicates he has no reason to queston it, even though he disputes other aspects of Baelor's reign.

[glamourweaver]

There would be tons of historical accounts of Baelor's penance walk. It's not a fabrication.

Though exaggeration is possible. There may have been some riding in between dramatic walking.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I really don't get where this Deamon love come from. I mean guy has all the traits of horrible king, bu still people make list of best-to-be kings with him on it? E?

And I really hope that he died at Harrenhall that die, that he crashed so hard into the lake that his body penetrate deep into mud, where he deserve to be.

He likely died. Would rather see a painful or humiliating death for him though.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The great:

1. Jaehaerys I - The undisputed #1. Makes as much sense to put anyone else in this spot as it is to put anyone other than Michael Jordan as greatest Bulls player ever. It's not even close.

2. Daeron II - Pretty much every problem he had was made by his father..He was just but not too forgiving like Robert.

3. Aegon I - He's not #2 because he could have done a better job to integrate the realm, which is what made by his grandson, but still was pretty good.

The good:

4. Viserys II- Although he reigned for a short time, he was the defacto ruler for over 15 years and did his best to mitigate the effects of his nephews policies;

5. Aegon V - Won wars and tried to modernize the state, even if Tywin ultimately worked to undo most of what he did, but he deserves credit for trying.

6. Maekar I- Could have been higher if not for a 5 year winter that screwed him, and succession problems. But still a pretty stable Kingdom overall.

7. Jaehaerys II- Won a major war that united all of Westeros against a single opponent. Isn't ranked higher because of the short period

8. Aegon III - Helped make the realm peaceful and stable after the bloodiest war ever and made the transition to a Dragonless Westeros.

The meh:

9. Aerys I - Well, he didn't really do anything, but he got out of the way of the competent people, so that's gotta count for something. Pretty much the perfect king to be in the middle of the list.

The bad:

10. Baelor I - He cared about the people, and was humble and modest. But he was also a nutter, and towards the end of his reign, he was a dangerous one.

11. Viserys I - While he lived, the realm was mostly stable and prosperous, but he was a complete dumbass that by acting like a 5 year old ultimately caused a civil war that resulted in the death of most of his family and all their dragons. Dude, you either don't remarry and doesn't have a son or you don't nominate your daughter to be your heir. How hard it is to understand that?

12. Daeron I - Great general, terrible administrator. It's kind hard to judge him because he never really ruler per se, just fought and fought.

13. Aenys I - He wasn't a bad person, but was too weak willed to be a King.

14. Aegon II - Was involved in a Civil War that he didn't cause, but he was very responsible for it's development. And of course fed her sister to his dragon in front of her 8 year old son.

Mad and/or evil:

15. Maegor I- Well, he was put in a bad situation, but as the OP said, he nearly burned the village to save the village.

16. Aegon IV- This guy on the other hand not only created all his problems, but went out of his way to cause more. He had some of LF in him, because he liked to watch the world burn.

18. Aerys II- Sure, the realm was mostly peaceful, but they guy would have murdered 500.000 people, and his actions caused the death of other hundreds of thousands.

[complexphoenix]

1. Jaehaerys I - everyone seems to agree this guy was the best. Bound up the wounds left by his uncle and made lasting, highly positive reforms, disarming the Faith, regularizing the law, and abolishing the First Night. Kept the realm at peace for decades.

2. Aegon I - united almost all Westeros under one crown, no easy feat, and held it together. That achievement puts him above all save Jaehaerys.

Daeron II - He's not called "the Good" for nothing, but still managed to piss enough people off to get the Blackfyre Rebellion started, so I rank him a bit lower than most people on this thread.

Viserys II - his reign was short but he ruled well as Hand for many years, and the few things he did in his reign were good ones.

Baelor - his follies were legion but fairly benign in the grand scheme of things, and making peace with Dorne was a superb achievement.

Maekar - what others said.

Jaehaerys II - things went well during his short rule.

Aegon III - held things together reasonably well, but was hobbled by his depression.

Aegon V - good ideas for reforms but was unable to implement them effectively, and his failure to control his children severely compromised him.

Aerys I - pretty much what the OP said.

Daeron I - Superb military commander but it ended in a very costly failure.

Aenys - Too weak to rule effectively.

Aegon II - Hard to blame him really, he had good cause to believe he'd be assassinated if he stood aside, but hoo boy. Results say it all - his entire branch of House Targaryen was wiped out, and the realm bled hard under his rule.

Viserys I - inherited a great situation and completely squandered it. Failed to resolve conflicts, swept shit under the rug, allowed problems to fester and accumulate, relying solely on his own authority to keep it all from exploding. Jaw-dropping hubris in ignoring customary succession law out of nothing more than petty favoritism. Should have realized what was going to happen after he died and didn't.

Aegon IV - a terrible monarch, totally mismanaged his administration and was a terrible human being to boot, and left an awful legacy in the Blackfyres, but his misrule was hands-off enough to be tolerable for most of the realm, so no one rose to depose him, at least - which makes him superior to

Aerys II - Lost the realm, but his early reign was good, so that makes him better than

Maegor - so bad he got himself deposed after just six years even though he had Balerion. He wasn't ruling, he was just brutalizing.

The kings near the top are the clearly good ones and the ones at the bottom are the clearly bad ones, but the ones in the middle are harder because they make up two types: the Unexceptional who weren't particularly good or bad at anything (Maekar, Jaehaerys II, Aegon III, Aerys I, Aenys roughly speaking) and the Twice-Exceptional who were good in some ways and bad in others (Aegon V, Baelor, Daeron I). Baelor is the hardest to place in the list. He could go anywhere from number 5 to number 9 in my opinion. Making peace with Dorne after the murder of his brother might have been the single greatest thing done by any Targaryen king ever, but then there were all those crazy follies. Everything depends on how you weight them.

[complexphoenix]

For me the interesting thing is that GRRM tragically kills off or forces the abdication of all the Targaryen Crown Princes/contenders for the Throne who would have been great Kings/Queens.

1. Jacaerys Velaryon.

2. Baelor Breakspear

3. Rhaegar Targaryen

4. Valarr/Matarys Targaryen

5. Duncan Prince of Dragonflies

6. Rhaenys Targaryen -"the Queen who never was".

7. Daemon Targaryen

8. Baelon Targaryen

anyone else care to add to the list? Who would have been a great King than Aegon?

There's also Aegon son of Aenys. We don't know much about him, but none of what we do know is bad.

Baelor Breakspear would have been a great king, no doubt, unless he exited Ashford alive but addled in the head.

Rhaegar would have been a good king if only love hadn't made him stupid, most everyone in the books who knew him personally agrees on that. I think the judgement of those who knew Rhaegar is more trustworthy than that of people on this forum who are theorizing and speculating about what may or may not have been going through his head, with some evidence to support their positions but nothing resembling proof.

We don't know a whole lot about Valarr, Matarys, Rhaenys, and Baelon, but what we do know suggests good things.

About Jacaerys I really have no idea what he would have been like as king. Daemon had a clear talent as shown by his leadership of the gold cloaks but was also prone to recklessness, and Duncan... well, any guy who thinks a peasant girl, however wonderful, is worth more than a crown is probably not a guy who ought to be king.

[Orbulas B. Harding]

The Truly GOOD

- Jaehaerys I

- Daeron II

- Aegon V

The Truly AWFUL

- Maegor

- Aegon IV

- Aerys II

The GREAT and TERRIBLE (indisputably "great" [not to be confused with good] kings, whose moral status is up for debate)

- Aegon I

- Daeron I

- Baelor

The Quietly Competent

- Viscerys II

- Maekar

- Jaehaerys II

The Quietly Inept

- Aenys

- Aegon III

- Aerys I

The Shared Catastrophe

- Viscerys I

- Aegon II

- Rhaenyra

I'm pretty much entirely on board with this.

For the love of the Dunk and Egg stories I'm sure Egg will always be my favorite

[Veltigar]

The bad:

10. Baelor I - He cared about the people, and was humble and modest. But he was also a nutter, and towards the end of his reign, he was a dangerous one.

11. Viserys I - While he lived, the realm was mostly stable and prosperous, but he was a complete dumbass that by acting like a 5 year old ultimately caused a civil war that resulted in the death of most of his family and all their dragons. Dude, you either don't remarry and doesn't have a son or you don't nominate your daughter to be your heir. How hard it is to understand that?

12. Daeron I - Great general, terrible administrator. It's kind hard to judge him because he never really ruler per se, just fought and fought.

I mostly agree with you list (though I would rank them a little differently), but I think you are to hard on Aegon III sons. Before the release of TWOIAF, I would have completely agreed, but I think TWOIAF has corrected some of our misconceptions about the Young Dragon and his pious brother. We knew that Daeron was a brilliant commander at a terribly young age, but I have gotten a lot more respect for him now. In the end he only made one mistake and that was trying to make a mariage alliance with Braavos. If he hadn't done that, the Free Cities wouldn't have supported the Dornish resistance and he probably would have won.

If the Dornish hadn't pulled an act of almost Freyish treason, Daeron would have become the King who united the Realm. And that at such a tender age, he had a lifetime left to do great things. The court at the time would have greatly helped him to achieve his goals. His uncle Viserys was a great administrator and he would have helped Daeron to succeed as a peace time ruler. His brother Baelor would have made a great High Septon. His sisters would have been prime material to make alliances with Great Houses and the Free Cities. In Aemon the Dragonknight he had a formidable champion. Even Aegon might have proven usefull if he was controlled. And through his aunts, Daeron had close connections to the Hightowers and the Velaryons.

Victory in the war against the Dornish would also have greatly benefitted his reign. The Reach and the Stormlands (particularly the Marcher lords and those bordering the Red Mountains) would have followed him everywhere after that. And just like the Wot9PK, Daeron's conquest would have been a great way to strengthen the internal bonds between the Realms. The heir to the North was fighting there, alongside Targaryen Princes, Lords from the Reach, Crownlands and Stormlands. I'm sure the other great houses (with the exception of the Greyjoys probably) would have been present as well. I'm also sure the conquest of Dorne would have been positive for trade. Their goods would be transported all over the realm and it would be easier for merchants to strike up bargains with their Dornish counterparts.

As to Baelor. In the end he was a religious nutter, but he didn't start that way imo. Before TWOIAF, I always thought he was crazy from the start, but the image that emerges from TWOIAF is a lot more nuanced. Baelor was certainly a pious man, well versed in the matters of the Faith. I have no doubt that young Baelor desired to become High Septon, a powerful position for a second son. When his elder brother died, he needed to become King. The first act of his reign is still the most brilliant PR-stunt in Westerosi history. Aside from choosing peace over a war that had become impossible to win after Daeron's death, he came up with a brilliant plan to foster peace between the two countries. He laid the first stone for the Dornish integration in the realm there. I think he would have made a fine king, especially with Viserys II to guide him, if it weren't for the Dornish Boltons (the Wylls). The poison seems to have messed up his mind and made him crazy. Such a shame.

[complexphoenix]

As to Baelor. In the end he was a religious nutter, but he didn't start that way imo. Before TWOIAF, I always thought he was crazy from the start, but the image that emerges from TWOIAF is a lot more nuanced. Baelor was certainly a pious man, well versed in the matters of the Faith. I have no doubt that young Baelor desired to become High Septon, a powerful position for a second son. When his elder brother died, he needed to become King. The first act of his reign is still the most brilliant PR-stunt in Westerosi history. Aside from choosing peace over a war that had become impossible to win after Daeron's death, he came up with a brilliant plan to foster peace between the two countries. He laid the first stone for the Dornish integration in the realm there. I think he would have made a fine king, especially with Viserys II to guide him, if it weren't for the Dornish Boltons (the Wylls). The poison seems to have messed up his mind and made him crazy. Such a shame.

I totally agree with most of this, but I don't think the poison was what did for his sanity. Walking barefoot to Sunspear and back was amazing, but it was also more than a little bit crazy. Stepping into the viper pit was completely crazy. Baelor's particular form of Targaryen madness was already present in him when he was crowned, and I think it would have gotten worse with time even without the poison. You could say that the coin flip landed on edge for him - he was both great AND mad.

[Lord Varys]

I think we can explain Baelor's pre-viper-pit behavior with deep piety and zealotry alone. Later on, the near-death experience may have activated some madness, but it is imaginable that a non-Targaryen guy would do pretty much the same thing out of a 'deep religious conviction' or the feeling to be some special guy chose by his god(s).

[Mithras]

Deep piety and zealotry do not make great kings; on the contrary, it makes feeble and dangerous kings. Baelor was a bad king and nuts. I put him below Aenys and above Aegon II.

[SeanF]

Deep piety and zealotry do not make great kings; on the contrary, it makes feeble and dangerous kings. Baelor was a bad king and nuts. I put him below Aenys and above Aegon II.

Baelor's mad behaviour worked, as a means of making peace with the Dornish.

His apparent proposal to forcibly convert the followers of the Old Gods and other religions would have been disastrous.

His tax breaks for fathers who fitted their daughters with chastity belts were hilarious.

[Mr Hodor]

Truly Good Kings

1. Aegon I - Ranked at the top as he was the one who craved the whole kingdom and ruled it efficiently for over three decades.

2. Jahaerys I

3. Aegon the Unlikely, he was good enough to take care of the smallfolk. What good is a kind if he doesn't take care of his smallfolk.

4. Dareon the Good.

5. Viserys I targaryen

6. Aegon III. I think he is underrated as he inherited a troubled kingdom and managed it well

---------------------------

Mostly Good

7. Maekar : Need more information on him, especially the third blackfyre rebellion

8. Aerys I: Need more information on him, especially the third blackfyre rebellion

9. Jahaerys II: Short rule, but he ruled well. Handled a rebellion

-----------------------------

Mostly Bad

10. Dareon The young dragon

11. Baelor the blessed:

12. Aenys,

13. Viserys I: How I turned a blind eye and helped start a civil war after my death

14. Aegon II: Though he seemed to be decent enough by the end

------------------------------

Truly bad kings

15. Aerys II, Above Maegor and Aegon IV because most of his mistakes can be attributed to paranoid schizophrenia. Ultimately he was a medical patient who couldnt change even if he wanted to.

16. Maegor

17. Aegon IV. He was the worst king, and almost tore the realm apart. The effects are felt even 120 years after his death.

[Mithras]

Baelor's mad behaviour worked, as a means of making peace with the Dornish.

Perhaps because the Dornish are half-mad themselves :D

[SeanF]

Perhaps because the Dornish are half-mad themselves :D

Dornish patriotism is pretty psychotic. There were willing to endure any form of suffering to avoid conquest by the Targaryens, at the same time as doing things like lopping body parts off captives, throwing people out of towers, showering a man with scorpions, and murdering Daeron and his knights under a peace-banner.

Always commit suicide, rather than let the Dornish take you prisoner.

[Lord Varys]

Piety and zealotry are exceptional qualities in kings, as pretty much all the theocratic monarchies of our world can testify. In fact, pretty much any kingship is founded on a religious basis, and thus theocratic in some degree.

But I did not say that Baelor was a great king, just that he was not yet necessarily nuts in the Targaryen madness thing sense prior to the viper pit.

I'd him rank among the most powerful Targaryen kings, though. He could do what he wanted, and did so until the day he died. It does not matter that some of those things were utterly ridiculous. Baelor clearly was the head of House Targaryen, and the man in charge of the Realm (and the Faith).