Political Maps of the Seven Kingdoms

[Universal Sword Donor]

Once again you come into an argument with your cock swinging.

Someone made a point that now its Winter the farmers can become soldiers.

I disagreed with the premise as these people who were previously farmers would need to be equipped and that the Glovers would need to have the extra weapons to arm these farmers.

I was actually pointing out that the Glovers were unlikely to have the excess weaponry to give to them.

No you came across with your "dick" swinging that they obviously wouldn't. The farmers would be coming into battle with whatever they had.

Farmers can absolutely become soldiers. It usually means they weren't called up or didn't respond to the call before. Steelshanks is a perfect example. Just because people are farming/hunting when the harvest is due doesn't mean they do not have arms or armor, especially when the harvest is literally, by far, the most important factor in mustering the levy. In medieval England, which Westeros is based off of, everyone with an estate or value over [insert value here] needed to provide an infantryman/archer/cavalry. If someone is farming near Deepwood Motte, they are going to have to provide that person, especially when someone like Stannis needs/demands their help and the harvest isn't coming in.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Okey guys you are like off topic for 6 pages. These are all assumptions because we don't know exact size of population, and how much men Glovers can equip....

IKR, I never knew I was so into a fictional houses army size, but I suppose I am. No harm done though.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No you came across with your "dick" swinging that they obviously wouldn't. The farmers would be coming into battle with whatever they had.

Farmers can absolutely become soldiers. It usually means they weren't called up or didn't respond to the call before. Steelshanks is a perfect example. Just because people are farming/hunting when the harvest is due doesn't mean they do not have arms or armor, especially when the harvest is literally, by far, the most important factor in mustering the levy.

Steelshanks Walton? He is a member of Waltons army.

Sure, anyone can fight, even without training and the proper equipment. But what tends to happen, as we witnessed with Stannis and his 1,500 trained and equipped soldiers against the thousands and thousands of untrained poorly equipped Wildlings is that the professional soldiers will win.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Steelshanks Walton? He is a member of Waltons army.

Sure, anyone can fight, even without training and the proper equipment. But what tends to happen, as we witnessed with Stannis and his 1,500 trained and equipped soldiers against the thousands and thousands of untrained poorly equipped Wildlings is that the professional soldiers will win.

Walton is a member of Walton's army? No. He's a member of Roose's army and a perfect example of a farmer who is a feudal levy.

And once again, I'm not arguing these men are the creme de la creme. I'm just arguing that they aren't untrained peasants who are given arms by the Glovers. That's just baby town frolics, and it's a dumb thing to even write. Don't do that.

[Dimples]

Once again you come into an argument with your cock swinging.

No you came across with your "dick" swinging that they obviously wouldn't.

Y'all should put some pants on.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Y'all should put some pants on.

Look, if I wanted to wear pants, I'd live in a country where they didn't know any better. Fortunately, my country of origin does not require them and neither does my preferred country of emigration, if shit hits the fan.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I feel like I'm talking to a stone, with my words blowing past it like wind, but I enjoy this topic, so let me repeat the facts:

In the last Jon chapter of Game of Thrones, Jeor Mormont outright tells Jon that any one of Eddard's Lords Bannermen commands more swords than the entire Watch. This sets a lower limit of 1000 for even the weakest of the Stark Lords Bannermen. Two things to note from this statement:

1. This sets a lower limit for the weakest of the Stark bannermen. It sets no upper limit for the weakest bannerman. The weakest bannerman could have 1100 men, or he could have 2000 men. We don't know. From this passage, we just know that it is higher than 1000 men.

2. We also don't know whether the Glovers are one of the weaker or one of the stronger Stark bannermen. In the absence of all evidence to the contrary, it is safest to assume they are somewhere in the middle.

So, we know what the minimum strength of the weakest Stark Lord Bannerman is from this extract. So, who are included in this list? Well, 32 pages later in the same book, Martin tells us who the Stark Lords Bannermen are that he has thus far introduced us to (as of the time of Book 1). In the Appendix, these are his words:

Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North

His principal lords bannermen:

- Ser Helman Tallhart

- Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold

- Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort

- Jon Umber, called the Greatjon

- Gallbart and Robett Glover

- Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor

- Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island

Note that under lords bannermen, the first name Martin lists is Ser Helman Tallhart, who is not a Lord. And Gallbart Glover is clearly listed too. So it is clear that "lords bannermen" are a collective reference to all of the principle bannermen sworn to Winterfell, whether they are actual lords, or Masters, or Sers, it makes no matter. In the same book Martin has Jeor Mormont refer to Eddard's lords bannermen, and Martin then proceeds to explicitly list who this refers to. You cannot get it any clearer than that.

Then lets jump to Dance with Dragons. In the Appendix, Martin puts it like this:

Bannermen of Winterfell, the Lords of the North:

- Jon Umber, called the Greatjon, Lord of Last Hearth

- Cley Cerwyn, Lord of Cerwyn

- Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort

- Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold

- Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor

- Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island

- Howland Reed, Lord of Greywater Watch

- Galbart Glover, Master of Deepwood Motte

- Ser Helman Tallhart, Master of Torhenn's Square

- Rodrik Ryswell, Lord of the Rills

- Lyessa Flint, Lady of Widow's Watch

- Ondrew Locke, Lord of Oldcastle

So once again, we see that even Helman Talhart who is a mere Ser, is referred to as one of the Stark lords bannermen. Galbart Glover could be titled High Druid of Deepwood Motte, it would make no matter. He is one of the lords bannermen of House Stark. And each of the lords bannermen on this list, can raise more men than the entire Watch.

Now, we have no idea if the weakest of them can raise 1100, or 1500, or 1800. We just know that they can raise more than 1000, at the very least.

However, we only have one instance thus far of the number of men raised by a Northern House being clearly quantified, and that is House Karstark, who has raised 2750 men thus far. We also know that he is not the strongest northern lord by any means, with the Boltons and Manderlys so far being confirmed as being stronger than House Karstark. But it could just as well be that most Houses in the North can match House Karstark's strength, and that they are merely average for the North.

And we of course have no idea where the Glovers lie in this range from 1100 to beyond 2750.

So, where does that leave us?

The answer is, until further information becomes available, no one can claim that the Glovers are not equivalent to the Florents in terms of manpower. Given the sample of one northern lord raising 2750 men thus far, there is every reason to believe that the average northern bannerhouse can raise in the region of 2000 men. What is also quite clear is that most lords brought far less than that to Robb's call of the banners at Winterfell. But that can clearly not be used in any way to measure the potential of these lords, some of whom must have brought as few as 500 men to Winterfell.

Heck, Lord Manderly, who has the most men in the North by a large margin, brought a mere 1500 men. This compared to the Karstarks 2300, and this while the Manderlys had the shortest march of any lord,while the Karstarks had to march 1000 miles to get to Moat Cailin, and this while we know the Manderlys have far more men and far more wealth than the Karstarks.

So lords sent however many men they chose to send at that point in time. Maybe Glover had a bad harvest, maybe Glover was in debt and could not afford the logistics of marching a large force to war at this point in time. Maybe he thought 500 men would be sufficient. Maybe he wanted to react with speed, and sent only horsemen.

Heck, maybe he had a dispute with some of his vassal lords, who decided not to send men. There are a hundred reasons why the men sent to Winterfell as part of Robb's initial 12000 were only a fraction of the full strength of the various Houses.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Walton is a member of Walton's army? No. He's a member of Roose's army and a perfect example of a farmer who is a feudal levy.

And once again, I'm not arguing these men are the creme de la creme. I'm just arguing that they aren't untrained peasants who are given arms by the Glovers. That's just baby town frolics, and it's a dumb thing to even write. Don't do that.

Walton is clearly trained. He's a soldier.

Steelshanks Walton commanded Jaime's escort; blunt, brusque, brutal, at heart a simple soldier.

Jaime had served with his sort all his life. Men like Walton would kill at their lord's command

Now there is a difference between trained and equipped soldiers and the regular farmers who never go off to war or are expected to protect the land.

We have just under 3,000 soldiers accounted for in the Karstark lands but they clearly have far, far more than 3,000 men. There is a distinction between soldier and population.

This whole discussion has been about the military capabilities of House Florent, which Stannis informs us can raise 2,000 swords and House Glover.

Both the Glovers and the Florents have soldiers and they have civilians who are capable of picking up a weapon and fighting, but for the sake of a clear fair discussion we should make an equal comparison rather than say that the Glovers can match the Florents if you include the farmers on Glover land who can fight as well.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

So once again, we see that even Helman Talhart who is a mere Ser, is referred to as one of the Stark lords bannermen. Galbart Glover could be titled High Druid of Deepwood Motte, it would make no matter. He is one of the lords bannermen of House Stark. And each of the lords bannermen on this list, can raise more men than the entire Watch.

I vote that from now on we refer to the Glovers as High Druids.

But a good post all in all.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Then lets jump to Dance with Dragons. In the Appendix, Martin puts it like this:

Bannermen of Winterfell, the Lords of the North:

- Jon Umber, called the Greatjon, Lord of Last Hearth

- Cley Cerwyn, Lord of Cerwyn

- Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort

- Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold

- Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor

- Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island

- Howland Reed, Lord of Greywater Watch

- Galbart Glover, Master of Deepwood Motte

- Ser Helman Tallhart, Master of Torhenn's Square

- Rodrik Ryswell, Lord of the Rills

- Lyessa Flint, Lady of Widow's Watch

- Ondrew Locke, Lord of Oldcastle

So once again, we see that even Helman Talhart who is a mere Ser, is referred to as one of the Stark lords bannermen.

10 Lords and Ladies and 2 Masters. It is pretty clear what GRRM wrote.

In the same appendix he also writes:

his bannermen, the Lords of Mountain and Vale:

YOHN ROYCE, called BRONZE YOHN, Lord of Runestone,

his son, SER ANDAR, heir to Runestone,

LORD NESTOR ROYCE, High Steward of the Vale and castellan of the Gates of the Moon,

his son and heir, SER ALBAR, his daughter,

MYRANDA, called RANDA, a widow, but scarce used, MYA STONE, bastard daughter of King Robert,

LYONEL CORBRAY, Lord of Heart's Home,

SER LYN COBRAY, his brother, who wields the famed blade Lady Forlorn,

SER LUCAS CORBRAY, his younger brother,

TRISTON SUNDERLAND, Lord of the Three Sisters,

GODRIC BORRELL, Lord of Sweetsister,

ROLLAND LONGTHORPE, Lord of Longsister,

ALESANDOR TORRENT, Lord of Littlesister,

ANYA WAYNWOOD, Lady of Ironoaks Castle,

SER MORTON, her eldest son and heir,

SER DONNEL, the Knight of the Bloody Gate,

WALLACE, her youngest son,

HARROLD HARDYNG, her ward, a squire oft called HARRY THE HEIR,

SER SYMOND TEMPLETON, the Knight of Ninestars,

Notice how Templeton is included despite not being a Lord?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Walton is clearly trained. He's a soldier.

Steelshanks Walton commanded Jaime's escort; blunt, brusque, brutal, at heart a simple soldier.

Now there is a difference between trained and equipped soldiers and the regular farmers who never go off to war or are expected to protect the land.

We have just under 3,000 soldiers accounted for in the Karstark lands but they clearly have far, far more than 3,000 men. There is a distinction between soldier and population.

This whole discussion has been about the military capabilities of House Florent, which Stannis informs us can raise 2,000 swords and House Glover.

Both the Glovers and the Florents have soldiers and they have civilians who are capable of picking up a weapon and fighting, but for the sake of a clear fair discussion we should make an equal comparison rather than say that the Glovers can match the Florents if you include the farmers on Glover land who can fight as well.

No. This discussion began on the size and strength of House Glover. I made a comparison that House Glover and Florent have similar amounts of men.

House Florent hasn't been mentioned since page 2.

There isn't a discussion to be had about the military capabilities of House Florent, we already know. Its 2000.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 Lords and Ladies and 2 Masters. It is pretty clear what GRRM wrote.

Indeed it is. Just a pity that you cannot grasp it.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

10 Lords and Ladies and 2 Masters. It is pretty clear what GRRM wrote.

Helman Tallhart is referred to as a Ser, and also a Master. He is a knight, undeniably, and also the Master of Torrhen's Square.

Galbart Glover is referred to as Lord, and as the Master of Deepwood Motte. He is also a lord.

Tywin Lannister is a knight, but is referred to as Lord. Same with almost every other lord.

Master is a rank, Lord is a title.

When referring to lords bannermen, Glover, Tallhart, Mormont and Flint of Widows Watch (if we are going by the line of logic that only those with the title Lord are lords) are his lords bannermen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Indeed it is. Just a pity that you cannot grasp it.

I grasp it. Look at the Vale Lords and you will see Ser Templeton is included. He, like Glover and Tallhart, is not a Lord, but a rank lower.

Keep grasping at them straws though.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 Lords and Ladies and 2 Masters. It is pretty clear what GRRM wrote. In the same appendix he also writes: Notice how Templeton is included despite not being a Lord?

Exactly. I'm glad you are able to finally recognize that fact. So if someone was to refer to the lords bannermen of House Arryn, it would include the Templetons.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

House Florent hasn't been mentioned since page 2.

Page 6 actually. Do you fact check anything you say?

The discussion was about whether the Glovers are comparable to House Florent (they are not) not if every single soldier went South.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ok ok.

So the Lords of Mountain and Vale include a knight. So a knight is a lords bannerman.

But the Lords of the North include two masters/1 knight/1 magnar (in future) but they aren't lords bannermen?

They are referred to as Lords of the North, but aren't lords bannermen?¿?¿?¿

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Exactly. I'm glad you are able to finally recognize that fact. So if someone was to refer to the lords bannermen of House Arryn, it would include the Templetons.

I recognize a Lord as a Lord and a Ser/Master as a Ser/Master. If they were Lords then they would be called Lords but I don't consider the likes of Clegane, Swyft or Glover to be Lords.

When Jon says:

"Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you'll find in all the Night's Watch."

He is referring to actual Lords and not the nobles ranked behind them.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I recognize a Lord as a Lord and a Ser/Master as a Ser/Master. If they were Lords then they would be called Lords but I don't consider the likes of Clegane, Swyft or Glover to be Lords.

When Jon says:

He is referring to actual Lords and not the nobles ranked behind them.

Nonsense. He is referring to the same collective term that Martin uses. Martin wrote his statement, after all. Why would Jeor Mormont refer to Lords Bannermen in one way, and Martin refer to them differently?

Martin clearly uses the term "lords bannermen" to refer to the collective group of principle vassal Houses sworn to a Lord Paramount. This really isn't a matter worth debating. You are merely prolonging the discussion on this because you don't like the implications this obvious fact has for your broader argument.

You are being disingenuous, to say the least.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I recognize a Lord as a Lord and a Ser/Master as a Ser/Master. If they were Lords then they would be called Lords but I don't consider the likes of Clegane, Swyft or Glover to be Lords.

When Jon says:

He is referring to actual Lords and not the nobles ranked behind them.

Clegane and Swyft have never been referred to as Lord. Galbart Glover has!

*laughs all the way to the bank*

Like seriously? You went through all the pages just to find a mention of House Glover to prove me wrong? omfg