Political Maps of the Seven Kingdoms

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The appendix does not say "Masters and Lords Bannermen" like it does for the Southron Houses. It says just "Lords Bannermen" and the head of the Masterly Houses are included. Hence the Glovers are one of the Lords Bannermen of the Starks.

I have just posted what it says in the Dance of Dragons Appendix. It quite clearly states Lords and Masters in the Northern section. Chose to ignore it if you want the but that is what the author has written.

In the appendix of AFFC it is written:

GALBART GLOVER, Master of Deepwood Motte, unwed,

In the appendix of ASOS it is written:

GALBART GLOVER, Master of Deepwood Motte,

GRRM specifies the ranks in the appendix and Glover and Tallhart quite clearly are labeled Masters while Karstark, Umber, Bolton, Mormont etc are Lords or Ladies.

Your problem is not with me but the author. He he has been pretty clear that they are not a lordly House.

Now that is not to say they can't generate a large number of men as some Knightly Houses are capable of doing so, but the numbers assembled at Winterfell and the men left behind suggests that they don't have anywhere near the same amount of men as House Florent. Sorry if that upsets you.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Clearly, obviously and undoubtedly, this is the collective group Jeor Mormont refers to as well.

lol

The appendix is by the author, it is not an in-universe document. How is it clear that Jeor is referring to the non Lordly Houses in the appendix?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I have just posted what it says in the Dance of Dragons Appendix. It quite clearly states Lords and Masters in the Northern section. Chose to ignore it if you want the but that is what the author has written.

In the appendix of AFFC it is written:

In the appendix of ASOS it is written:

GRRM specifies the ranks in the appendix and Glover and Tallhart quite clearly are labeled Masters while Karstark, Umber, Bolton, Mormont etc are Lords or Ladies.

Your problem is not with me but the author. He he has been pretty clear that they are not a lordly House.

Now that is not to say they can't generate a large number of men as some Knightly Houses are capable of doing so, but the numbers assembled at Winterfell and the men left behind suggests that they don't have anywhere near the same amount of men as House Florent. Sorry if that upsets you.

Numbers don't mean shit.

Lady Dustin held men back.

Lord Ryswell (all 4) held men back.

Lord Manderly held men back.

Lord Bolton held men back.

Even Umber and Karstark could still find more men, and we know how many they commited.

But no, I suppose Lord Glover sent every single fighting man in the Glover territory. All 300 of them. (Even though Lady Glover could find more later, they must have been borrowed from the Tallharts).

[creganstark]

I put all the revised maps together with two new ones (westerlands and crownlands) and the Dorne and Iron Islands maps which got positive feedback in one imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/uKb48

added the link to the op as well

[Fat Mac]

I put all the revised maps together with two new ones (westerlands and crownlands) and the Dorne and Iron Islands maps which got positive feedback in one imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/uKb48

added the link to the op as well

Excellent work, creganstark. I'll be using this as my headcanon until proven otherwise :thumbsup:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

But no, I suppose Lord Glover sent every single fighting man in the Glover territory. All 300 of them. (Even though Lady Glover could find more later, they must have been borrowed from the Tallharts).

Are you now resorting to a strawman argument. Shame.

The discussion was about whether the Glovers are comparable to House Florent (they are not) not if every single soldier went South.

Asha was able to take Deepwood Motte quite easily

"What else would you call it? With thirty men, I captured Winterfell in a night. You needed a thousand and a moon's turn to take Deepwood Motte."

Infact Theon who as a key member of Robbs war council at Winterfell knows exactly how well guarded Deepwood Motte is.

Theon had to bite his tongue. Deepwood Motte was the stronghold of the Glovers. With both Robett and Galbart warring in the south, it would be lightly held, and once the castle fell the ironmen would have a secure base in the heart of the north. I should be the one sent to take Deepwood. He knew Deepwood Motte, he had visited the Glovers several times with Eddard Stark.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Are you now resorting to a strawman argument. Shame.

The discussion was about whether the Glovers are comparable to House Florent (they are not) not if every single soldier went South.

What. Comparable to House Florent? No. I made that comparison as they are probably able to field similar amounts of men. The discussion is whether they can field 2000, which is likely.

But no, I suppose you're entirely correct.

The Glovers are comparable to the Florents, its just a change of last names. I do love the Glovers seat of Brightwater Keep, it sounds so pretty. Lord Alester Glover was also of a great support to the Starks, just like his compare Master Galbart Florent has been to Stannis.

Why there almost the same! Its just that Master Galbart Florent can field 2000 men, while Lord Alester Glover can only field 300.

I'll brb, going to paint a mailed fist on a field of blue flowers, with red ermine as the background.

[AtomixIGN]

I love maps - these maps make me wonder why House Hersy isnt more prominent. Their lands are like a back door to the Vale, from the North and Riverlands, its coastal and close to the Kings Road. Their sigil is basically the same as Arlan of Penny Tree.

Before this thread and OP's maps I use to stare at that little flat spot and wonder who lived there and why they werent involved in... seemingly anything. Also their HQ being called Newkeep - well that has me all sorts of interested.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What. Comparable to House Florent? No. I made that comparison as they are probably able to field similar amounts of men. The discussion is whether they can field 2000, which is likely.

How? You have not provided a single piece of text from the book to back up this claim.

Theon knows that they are lightly garrisoned so it's not a case that they kept many men back to defend Deepwood Motte.

Now it could be that they sent a large amount of men South with Robb. The books tell us that Robb assembled 12k at Winterfell and we know that the Karstarks were the last to arrive with 2,300 meaning that the remaining 9,700 came from the other Houses.

We also know that the 3,500 force at the Red Wedding under Roose was "in chief" Bolton men with some Karstark. So that gives the Boltons a force of at least 2k which takes the original 12k at Winterfell down to 7,700.

The remaining Houses assembled at Winterfell:

Stark, Mormont, Umber, Glover*, Hornwood, Cerwyn and Tallhart* (and possibly some from the Mountain Clans).

I will ignore the Mountain Clans and spread the 7,700 equally among the remaining Houses meaning each House contributed 1,100. However, if one or more of these Houses provided more men than the others, such as the Starks, then that would decrease the average of the other 6.

Using basic maths and common sense it is easy to see that the Glovers do not have 2,000 men. I seriously doubt they can raise half of that. That is nothing to be ashamed of as many Houses in Westeros can not raise over a 1,000 soldiers.

[Universal Sword Donor]

What. Comparable to House Florent? No. I made that comparison as they are probably able to field similar amounts of men. The discussion is whether they can field 2000, which is likely.

But no, I suppose you're entirely correct.

The Glovers are comparable to the Florents, its just a change of last names. I do love the Glovers seat of Brightwater Keep, it sounds so pretty. Lord Alester Glover was also of a great support to the Starks, just like his compare Master Galbart Florent has been to Stannis.

Why there almost the same! Its just that Master Galbart Florent can field 2000 men, while Lord Alester Glover can only field 300.

I'll brb, going to paint a mailed fist on a field of blue flowers, with red ermine as the background.

Not to nitpick, but the Glovers of Brightwater Keep recently fled to Oldcastle to escape the retribution of their overlords the Bolells of Highfort.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

How? You have not provided a single piece of text from the book to back up this claim.

Theon knows that they are lightly garrisoned so it's not a case that they kept many men back to defend Deepwood Motte.

Now it could be that they sent a large amount of men South with Robb. The books tell us that Robb assembled 12k at Winterfell and we know that the Karstarks were the last to arrive with 2,300 meaning that the remaining 9,700 came from the other Houses.

We also know that the 3,500 force at the Red Wedding under Roose was "in chief" Bolton men with some Karstark. So that gives the Boltons a force of at least 2k which takes the original 12k at Winterfell down to 7,700.

The remaining Houses assembled at Winterfell:

Stark, Mormont, Umber, Glover*, Hornwood, Cerwyn and Tallhart* (and possibly some from the Mountain Clans).

I will ignore the Mountain Clans and spread the 7,700 equally among the remaining Houses meaning each House contributed 1,100. However, if one or more of these Houses provided more men than the others, such as the Starks, then that would decrease the average of the other 6.

Using basic maths and common sense it is easy to see that the Glovers do not have 2,000 men. I seriously doubt they can raise half of that. That is nothing to be ashamed of as many Houses in Westeros can not raise over a 1,000 soldiers.

So the Starks contribute 3300, 1100 of which are Glover men, and 1100 which are Tallhart men. (The Mountain Clans are totally ignorable since they only contribute like one man from each house, a "nobleman").

100 men have already been sent to Deepwood Motte by Ned, so Glover count= 1200.

Lightly defended, say 50 men. They were lost when Deepwood Motte was taken by Asha. 1250

More men join Stannis from the wolfswood, from houses Branch, Bole, Forrester and Woods. It is said to be trackers and the such which is likely another ~50. The only men mentioned are Ned Woods and Benjicot Branch both "nobility" and I doubt nobility would travel alone. 1300.

The Nights Watch numbered around 1000 men, and every Northern lord is said to be able to raise more then them. Say what you will, but the Glovers are a masterly house (rank), ruled by a lord. They are lords.

So from the book, that is 1300 men.

Considering that almost every lord had kept men back, and that the wolfswood would have people inhabating it, it is certain that they can raise more, maybe 200 more, maybe 500 more. The Karstarks sent 2300 men, and still pulled up 400/450 more. They live in an area that is forested (like the Glovers, although wolfswood is more decidious (more fertile) and the Karwood is more coniferous) so obviously there are people living in these forests.

If you go by the book numbers (which are far from perfect) you will get a smaller number then the true strength. No one ever commits in full.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Not to nitpick, but the Glovers of Brightwater Keep recently fled to Oldcastle to escape the retribution of their overlords the Bolells of Highfort.

You are wrong. They are fleeing to Newgarden to escape the Highwynes. :laugh:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So the Starks contribute 3300, 1100 of which are Glover men, and 1100 which are Tallhart men.

If you think the Glovers contributed the same amount of men as the Starks and Umbers then fair enough.

(The Mountain Clans are totally ignorable since they only contribute like one man from each house, a "nobleman").

Please read the books or even the wiki before making easily disprovable statements like this.

Boltons account of the battle of Ruby Ford

I had no choice but to ferry my men across in small boats, of which we had too few. Two-thirds of my strength was on the north side when the Lannisters attacked those still waiting to cross. Norrey, Locke, and Burley men chiefly, with Ser Wylis Manderly and his White Harbor knights as rear guard.

That is quite clearly more than one man.

100 men have already been sent to Deepwood Motte by Ned, so Glover count= 1200.

I actually genuinly thought this as well until I read the passage again. Ned at Kings Landing does not send a message to Winterfell, but tells Cat to do it.

By the time she has arrived in the North (White Harbor) Robb has already called his banners and is at Moat Cailin.

Lightly defended, say 50 men. They were lost when Deepwood Motte was taken by Asha. 1250

I agree with this. I dont even have a problem with you rounding it up to a 100.

More men join Stannis from the wolfswood, from houses Branch, Bole, Forrester and Woods. It is said to be trackers and the such which is likely another ~50.

They are trackers and hunters not soldiers. Mya Stone guides Cat to the Eyrie but I'm not going to include her in the Arrysn military numbers.

The only men mentioned are Ned Woods and Benjicot Branch both "nobility" and I doubt nobility would travel alone. 1300.

Don't be ridiculous. They work as Hunters, do you think Hunters have a retinue.

I also find it hilarious that you state that the mountain clan 'nobility' are all travelling by themselves, but these hunter and tracker 'nobility' have men of their own.

The Nights Watch numbered around 1000 men, and every Northern lord is said to be able to raise more then them. Say what you will, but the Glovers are a masterly house (rank), ruled by a lord. They are lords.

Exactly, ruled by a Lord.

The author has been pretty clear that they are not Lords. I'm sorry that you disagree with him.

The Karstarks sent 2300 men, and still pulled up 400/450 more. They live in an area that is forested (like the Glovers, although wolfswood is more decidious (more fertile) and the Karwood is more coniferous) so obviously there are people living in these forests.

The East Coast does not have the same history of the Ironborn raving. We have been told why the West coast is less populated then the East.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

If you think the Glovers contributed the same amount of men as the Starks and Umbers then fair enough.

Please read the books or even the wiki before making easily disprovable statements like this.

Boltons account of the battle of Ruby Ford

That is quite clearly more than one man.

I actually genuinly thought this as well until I read the passage again. Ned at Kings Landing does not send a message to Winterfell, but tells Cat to do it.

By the time she has arrived in the North (White Harbor) Robb has already called his banners and is at Moat Cailin.

I agree with this. I dont even have a problem with you rounding it up to a 100.

They are trackers and hunters not soldiers. Mya Stone guides Cat to the Eyrie but I'm not going to include her in the Arrysn military numbers.

Don't be ridiculous. They work as Hunters, do you think Hunters have a retinue.

I also find it hilarious that you state that the mountain clan 'nobility' are all travelling by themselves, but these hunter and tracker 'nobility' have men of their own.

Exactly, ruled by a Lord.

The author has been pretty clear that they are not Lords. I'm sorry that you disagree with him.

The East Coast does not have the same history of the Ironborn raving. We have been told why the West coast is less populated then the East.

My bad about the mountain clans. I was only aware of men in Robbs personal guard.

The West Coast hasn't been reaved for how long?

Um, do you think that trackers and hunters wouldn't fight? Trackers find things. To kill. Hunters find things. To kill. They have weapons, they will fight.

I doubt the mountain clansmen sent many men at all. There is still 3000 to be found after they leave. (But I suppose if they sent men and had 3000 men remaining, then the Glovers could do the same).

I'd include Mya. She knows the castles and the paths, she can hit a man off a mountain and that makes her a soldier or at least a guard.

[Vikingkingq]

I'd like to chime in on the pro-Glover side here.

Another form of information we're not considering here is commanders. We have a good list of who held commands in Robb's army, both in terms of leading major sections of an army or acting independently. For example, we know that Greatjon Umber, Roose Bolton, and Robett Glover all vie for command. Given the nature of feudal armies, it's unlikely that a lord with only 200-300 men to his name could hope to claim such an honor without the necessary men to give them enough weight to do so.

We learn this from the various battles:

- at the Green Fork, Roose Bolton is in overall command, Ser Wylis Manderly, Lord Medgar Cerwyn, Lord Harrion Karstark, and Lord Halys Hornwood hold subsidiary commands.

- at the Whispering Woods, Robb Stark is in overall command, Maege Mormont, Greatjon Umber, Rickard Karstark, and the Mallisters hold subsidiary commands.

- at the Camps, Robb Stark is in overall command, under him are Lord Umber and Lord Mallister, and then the Blackfish leads the van.

- after Oxcross, Robb Stark gives separate commands to Galbart Glover, Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, and Greatjon Umber.

- at the Sack of Harrenhal, Roose Bolton assigns Robett Glover to command.

- at Duskendale, Roose Bolton assigns Robett Glover to command.

- on the march to the Twins, Galbart Glover is assigned command of the scouts and outriders.

Now, this is inexact, but note that both Glovers, one in command of the horse and the other in command of the foot, are important enough to have been given major commands.

I think it's more likely that the Glovers can field 1-2,000 men, and the reason that Deepwood Motte fell so easily is that: a. most of their men went south, and b. the main keep was taken before their banners could be called.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The West Coast hasn't been reaved for how long?

Well, right now in the books. Before that the last major Reaving was about 80 years before the series by Dagon Greyjoy.

But we know it hasn't recovered as we are told:

If we hand back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together.

It seems pretty obvious that the Lords who control lands on the East Coast of the North are more powerful than their West Coast counterparts.

Um, do you think that trackers and hunters wouldn't fight? Trackers find things. To kill. Hunters find things. To kill. They have weapons, they will fight.

I think if you hand old Nan a sword she would have fought. You said previously that we were talking about soldiers and not population. Hunters and trackers are not part of the army but yes in circumstances they can fight just like any member of the population can.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I'd like to chime in on the pro-Glover side here.

Another form of information we're not considering here is commanders. We have a good list of who held commands in Robb's army, both in terms of leading major sections of an army or acting independently.

Theon was also angling for a command position and he brought no soldiers towards the cause. The Blackfish became Robbs no2 before the Riverlords or Tullys joined him. Cassel was given command of the army back in the North.

Sometimes command has nothing to do with how many men you supply, but proximity to the Commander. The Glovers and Tallharts would have a closer relationship to the Starks due to them being direct subordinates.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well, right now in the books. Before that the last major Reaving was about 80 years before the series by Dagon Greyjoy.

I think if you hand old Nan a sword she would have fought. You said previously that we were talking about soldiers and not population. Hunters and trackers are not part of the army but yes in circumstances they can fight just like any member of the population can.

The hunters and trackers were going to fight, make no mistake. A soldier can cook, clean, become a prostitute or whatever, it makes more then enough sense that one can track or hunt.

I am talking about soldiers when I talk about Mya. She functions the same as an Arryn household guard, and to say that they aren't soldiers is ridculous. Soldiers=/=Males.

Theon was also angling for a command position and he brought no soldiers towards the cause. The Blackfish became Robbs no2 before the Riverlords or Tullys joined him. Cassel was given command of the army back in the North.

Sometimes command has nothing to do with how many men you supply, but proximity to the Commander. The Glovers and Tallharts would have a closer relationship to the Starks due to them being direct subordinates.

The Blackfish is family. Theon was angling for it, but would never achieve it.

Cassel was master of arms at Winterfell, with the chief guard (his nephew Jory) gone, of course he takes over the defense of Winterfell.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I am talking about soldiers when I talk about Mya. She functions the same as an Arryn household guard, and to say that they aren't soldiers is ridculous. Soldiers=/=Males.

lol

[Ramsay's Penguins]

lol

Do you find that funny?

She helps people up the path, she will defend the path if need be. She knows the path, and the castles. They trust her. She guards the path.

Ok so she isn't in armour and doesn't get paid the same wages as the guards. She doesn't have generic sword 126 or generic crossbow 786 like the guards. She'd probably use a mules horseshoe as a weapon.

But she will defend the path if neccessary.